Does something need to be done about dogs?

The social science behind it is sound enough for people to make billions from applying it. This kind of influence already happens every day on a massive scale. Just here on this forum, graphics card and CPU threads are peppered with YouTube links and quoted opinions of various influencers (Linus, Jay, Steve at GamersNexus). Elsewhere it's all "Get celebs, get real life, ger Closer", and a dozen other magazines, that are purely about what celebs are doing, wearing and buying . News websites too, peppered with articles on what bikini some woman from Corrie is wearing, or where Ronaldo went shopping over the weekend... always accompanied by a breakdown of what they bought, where it's sold and how much, and where to find budget versions. People ******* lap this **** up... why not make good use of it?

Almost all of that works because there’s a product being sold somewhere and people are making lots of money out of it, it’s not the same.

Trying to get online influencers, YouTubers, rappers or whoever to get involved in some weird campaign, persuading meatheads on a Manchester council estate to give up their Bully XL - it just doesn’t work.

My brain can’t join those things together and create a picture of it working..
 
Almost all of that works because there’s a product being sold somewhere and people are making lots of money out of it, it’s not the same.
Trying to get online influencers, YouTubers, rappers or whoever to get involved in some weird campaign, persuading meatheads on a Manchester council estate to give up their Bully XL - it just doesn’t work.
My brain can’t join those things together and create a picture of it working..

Social marketing is defined as “the use of marketing principles and techniques to influence a target audience to voluntarily accept, modify or quit behaviour for the benefit of individuals, groups or society as a whole".

Important factors for an effective campaign are clearly defined problems and target groups, as well as a corresponding tailored message. Furthermore, it is necessary to use theoretical psychological models* that explain the behaviour or problem.
These models help to define the campaign’s aim, the campaign strategy and message. It is important to note that communication has to be based on the cultural codes used in the target community. That means that a promising campaign might not be as effective in another cultural setting if it is not adapted to its audience. A controversial issue when designing a campaign message is whether or not fear-based information is effective. While this kind of approach was used widely in the past, more recent research indicates that campaigns that focus on positive consequences are more effective, especially among males and young groups, than confronting campaigns.

*The Fear Appeal Theory model gives some insight as to why people feel the need for a big scary dog like a BXL.
*The Theory of Reasoned Action and Theory of Planned Behaviour both detail how social influence promoted status dogs and equally how that can be reversed into the rejection of them.

The primary 'product' in all this is likes and follows, magazine copies, monetised videos, and paid advertisement that go with celebrity journalism... and, of course, the celebs' fans themselves.
The secondary product is all the brands and merchandise sales that result from the affiliated celebs' popularity.

Additionally, with all those rappers banging on about Police brutality, crime, social inequality, social movements, gangs and drug wars - They're also big into charities and social issues. This particular social issue (or campaign, if you wanna call it that) is fundamentally no different, so long as they're on board.

Childrens' charities and causes are pretty big, no matter which celebs are involved and given how this is about dangerous dogs, many of whose victims are young children, there's an obvious connection to be made.

Celebs and influencers are your sales team.
This is monkey see, monkey do.
 
So in short then, instead of trying to solve one obvious problem; An unnecessary dangerous dog breed is disproportionately killing people.

We instead have two problems to solve; the dangerous dog, followed by all of modern humanities social issues, which we’ll use rappers and influencers to fix.

It’s just not viable, serious or practical.
 
You already have two problems in this thread - A specific breed of status dog that is reputed to be inherrently dangerous, and dangerous dogs resulting from irresponsible ownership.

Like I said before, treating the individual symptoms separately does nothing to address the root cause.
The issue of status dogs is just one of many different symptoms resulting from the same root cause.
Why would you think an expensive silo approach resulting in problem chasing is the solution?
 
So in short then, instead of trying to solve one obvious problem; An unnecessary dangerous dog breed is disproportionately killing people.

We instead have two problems to solve; the dangerous dog, followed by all of modern humanities social issues, which we’ll use rappers and influencers to fix.

It’s just not viable, serious or practical.
best of luck getting the rappers and BBCC and other ASBO based artists to give up their dogs and go for something a bit friendlier.

Wonderful if Will Smith and Lewis Hamilton get collies and boast about safer dogs. Until the celebrities of the chav world jump on board (which they wont without significant money), it wont change as they will jus move on to another less than desirable breed.
 
Like I said before, treating the individual symptoms separately does nothing to address the root cause.

Well I think we all know that, however any solution has to be grounded in reality.

It's a bit like saying "Instead of making theft and burglary illegal, we should make a society where people don't feel the need to commit theft and burglary" Which would be very nice to have, but because human beings are very difficult to control, we need authority to impose punishments and deterrants, so that the majority of us don't fall astray and we live civilly together.
 
Well I think we all know that, however any solution has to be grounded in reality.
It is reality - Removing the drivers of crime is one of the key principles of all existing (UK) crime prevention strategies.
In the case of status breeders, for example, it's much clearer as pretty much their sole driver is profit. If you devalue status dogs, and restrict or eliminate their market, they don't make any money doing it. This, in turn, also helps constrict the supply of status dogs to potential owners and narrows the channels through which to trace any remaining breeders.

Punishments and deterrants tend to displace crime, rather than reduce or prevent it.

Human beings are easy to control, especially the majority. Individual behaviour is governed by social norms, and deviance is punished by other individuals through social stigma, censure, or violence. This was used to considerable effect during WW2 to reduce manipulate social social norms as part of an effort to reduce demand for scarce products needed for the war effort.

The long term goal would, of course, be to eliminate the root causes of crime, but in the short term manipulation of the socal norms is effective.
As mentioned, these sorts of strategies are already in widespread use and have been proven successful within their scope of crime reduction. The only real challenge is in making them specific enough to the target demographics, as they aren't as suited to generalised application as legislation.
 
So in short then, instead of trying to solve one obvious problem; An unnecessary dangerous dog breed is disproportionately killing people.

We instead have two problems to solve; the dangerous dog, followed by all of modern humanities social issues, which we’ll use rappers and influencers to fix.

It’s just not viable, serious or practical.

Exactly and it's just handwaving... it's like if the government stood up during covid and said, we're not going to implement any laws to stop the spread but instead we'll only make use of the nudge uni and these fancy signs we have at the press conferences.
 
If you devalue status dogs, and restrict or eliminate their market, they don't make any money doing it. This, in turn, also helps constrict the supply of status dogs to potential owners and narrows the channels through which to trace any remaining breeders.

I get it.

The bit that you're not explaining at all, is how the **** do you do that, in today's society?

100% signed up - make these things uncool and they'll go away naturally, easy peasy to understand.

But I don't understand how in practical reality this is implemented? You keep referring to these wooly terms such as "changing social norms" or whatever, but it's all just waffle without a practical explanation of how it would work.

To @dowie 's point, he's right - as soon as we say "ok, how does this work?" you write these essays about all manner of stuff, but there's nothing that really tells us anything.

When on the other hand, I can look at the data and the very basic numeracy and say "This breed is directly responsible for the rise in deaths, no other breed is involved - it's clearly a problem, lets be rid of it"

If it was the case that dog deaths had risen, and the breeds involved were random, then the problem would be much more complicated, but it hasn't - it's a single breed which is causing the problem, so just go with the simple solution - get rid of it.
 
To @dowie 's point, he's right - as soon as we say "ok, how does this work?" you write these essays about all manner of stuff, but there's nothing that really tells us anything.

When on the other hand, I can look at the data and the very basic numeracy and say "This breed is directly responsible for the rise in deaths, no other breed is involved - it's clearly a problem, lets be rid of it"

If it was the case that dog deaths had risen, and the breeds involved were random, then the problem would be much more complicated, but it hasn't - it's a single breed which is causing the problem, so just go with the simple solution - get rid of it.

Or indeed we could try this vague social campaign against dangerous breeds and just ban the XL Bully or bull terrier types anyway. I mean if the social campaign works then who is going to complain? We've magically brainwashed everyone into not wanting those dogs anyway... But back in reality there isn't a magic wand and so banning and running a campaign re: responsible dog ownership or whatever is perhaps better.
 
Exactly and it's just handwaving... it's like if the government stood up during covid and said, we're not going to implement any laws to stop the spread but instead we'll only make use of the nudge uni and these fancy signs we have at the press conferences.
Government strategies on Covid are not exactly the best example to use, given how many of them broke their own laws.
Comments in the discussion threads on here alone give ample examples of how people subjected to government Covid campaigns remained very uninformed about mask use.

You're using a perfect example of inadequate and incompetent application of generalised strategy by a bunch of self-serving dickheads, to dismiss a proven more focussed strategy that requires a proper understanding of the target demographic for effective implementation. The laws were absolutely necessary, because the blundering and contradictory government were incapable of achieving it any other way... Despite all this, mask-wearing compliance (at least in terms of self-reported) was comparatively high, whereas social distancing and hand-washing were relatively low, and it still relied primarily on social pressure to motivate compliance within the wider community, rather than any fear or threat of punishment.

But I don't understand how in practical reality this is implemented? You keep referring to these wooly terms such as "changing social norms" or whatever, but it's all just waffle without a practical explanation of how it would work.
I know a fair degree of the theory and how previously applied schemes achieved success, along with the science behind that.
What I can't tell you is the specifics of the status-dog owner culture to which such a strategy must necessarily be tailored around. I don't know who their idols are, what music they listen to, what magazines and newspapers they read (presumably The Sun and The Mirror, if they can read at all?) or what TV shows they watch.
If I did have this level of knowledge, I'd be working for a big company in their marketing & advertising department earning a lot more money!

If it was the case that dog deaths had risen, and the breeds involved were random, then the problem would be much more complicated, but it hasn't - it's a single breed which is causing the problem, so just go with the simple solution - get rid of it.
They banned Pitbulls, so they instead bred those into the Bully XL.
The problem with 'just going with the simple solution' is that a couple of years down the line you'll only have some other breed Variant XXL causing problems and needing to be banned, and we'll be back in this thread having the same discussions.
Just getting rid doesn't make the problem go away.
 
Government strategies on Covid are not exactly the best example to use, given how many of them broke their own laws.

No, it's a fine example to use, this is just your mental hangup that if something doesn't work 100% effectively you want to toss it all out.

You're using a perfect example of inadequate and incompetent application of generalised strategy by a bunch of self-serving dickheads, to dismiss a proven more focussed strategy that requires a proper understanding of the target demographic for effective implementation.

OK so give an example of a where this magical psychological approach you're advocating for works?
 
What I can't tell you is the specifics of the status-dog owner culture to which such a strategy must necessarily be tailored around. I don't know who their idols are, what music they listen to, what magazines and newspapers they read (presumably The Sun and The Mirror, if they can read at all?) or what TV shows they watch.
If I did have this level of knowledge, I'd be working for a big company in their marketing & advertising department earning a lot more money!
Tell me how you can get the Bad Boy Chiller Crew and goldie lookin chain etc etc to change their social views around these animals and how you are going to get them to promote safe and friendly animals when it does not fit that world?

You said you will use these celebrities to change the society view, so how are you going to get through to these people and get them to promote it on a safety side of things and get them to downgrade their street credit.

Sounds silly, but this is the reality.
 
They banned Pitbulls, so they instead bred those into the Bully XL.
The problem with 'just going with the simple solution' is that a couple of years down the line you'll only have some other breed Variant XXL causing problems and needing to be banned, and we'll be back in this thread having the same discussions.
Just getting rid doesn't make the problem go away.

To be fair, my suggestion isn't just to ban BullyXLs, it's also to do the following things:
  • Add the BXL to the banned breeds list
  • Have mandatory dog licenses,
  • Have mandatory insurance for all, or certain breeds
  • Anyone breeding dogs MUST have a special breeding license
  • Crossing random breeds to make other or new breeds without it being sanctioned, is prohibited
  • Perhaps mandatory training for owners too - to compliment the insurance, but I'm not sure - might be too much.
To me those things are all tangible ideas which I think would certainly help, and aren't that complicated to understand or imagine in practise..
 
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No, it's a fine example to use, this is just your mental hangup that if something doesn't work 100% effectively you want to toss it all out.
A fine example? No, it's a **** example.
It's one thing if some proles don't obey new laws, but pretty abysmal when the lawmakers themselves (including the Prime Minister) flagrantly ignore them.
As pointed out, people weren't following the laws because it was law.

OK so give an example of a where this magical psychological approach you're advocating for works?
The Designated Driver or DES scheme.
The Gurkha Justice Campaign.
Live Aid.
The ALS challenge.

All examples of successful causes supported by celebrity/influencer persuasion and driven by the peer pressures of social norms.

Tell me how you can get the Bad Boy Chiller Crew and goldie lookin chain etc etc to change their social views around these animals and how you are going to get them to promote safe and friendly animals when it does not fit that world?
You said you will use these celebrities to change the society view, so how are you going to get through to these people and get them to promote it on a safety side of things and get them to downgrade their street credit.
Sounds silly, but this is the reality.
From what little I can tell:
BBCC - They have an older manager and a deal with a record company, both of whom will have a controlling influence. Also at least one of them is a father and one other has a dog (that isn't a status type). So either financial incentive or emotional appeal.

GLC - Not at all familiar with. But I imagine it's the same as the above, and with most other celebs, really.

But most artists on these levels, rappers in particular, are big into social commentary, and if XLBs killing people (especially children) are THAT much of a problem then they should have no worries highlighting what sort of a **** you'd have to be to own one. Plenty of alternate angles by which to convey that message too, whether it be another government failing to protect people from such dangerous issues, or whatever.

Street credit is defined, essentially, by how the urban youth relate to you and how well they accept you.
If dogs like this are a problem then they, and more importantly their friends and families, will have expressed the same concerns anyway.

To be fair, my suggestion isn't just to ban BullyXLs, it's also to do the following things:
  • Add the BXL to the banned breeds list
  • Have mandatory dog licenses,
  • Have mandatory insurance for all, or certain breeds
  • Anyone breeding dogs MUST have a special breeding license
  • Crossing random breeds to make other or new breeds without it being sanctioned, is prohibited
  • Perhaps mandatory training for owners too - to compliment the insurance, but I'm not sure - might be too much.
To me those things are all tangible ideas which I think would certainly help, and aren't that complicated to understand or imagine in practise..

Breeders already do need a licence.
Dog licences and insurance require a lot of active policing to be effective. Licences failed in the past because they were more of a tax-generating measure than anything else, so they need to actually be effective this time.
Insurance for all dogs would also need to be sensibly priced, otherwise you will kill off law-abiding dog ownership over the inevitable money-gouging, generate more profit for illegal breeders, and push illegal/irresponsible ownership further in the direction from which we want to move away.

Outlawing crossing random breeds to specifically make new breeds is sensible, but should not impact mongrels, nor any natural conception that might happen. Mongrels are generally less susceptible to diseases, harmful mutations (insert Pug image) and other medical issues than purebreds (or inbreds, as is sometimes joked), often live longer and tend to have more moderate temperaments.

Mandatory training is actually pretty easy and probably the most effective suggestion on the list.
Every dog must be chipped and registerd by law. The Kennel Club already has the training, examination and certification systems set up.
It'd be very little trouble to tie the dog's certification of training tied to their microchip record.

I'm still not convinced this will inhibit the problem outliers, since they're the ones who should be targeted the most intensely by any approach, as the ones least likely to comply.
 
The Designated Driver or DES scheme.
The Gurkha Justice Campaign.
Live Aid.
The ALS challenge.

Elaborate... you seem to be conflating rather different things here. The Gurkha thing was lobbying the government, Live aid was raising money for charity..

WTF does these have to do with using magical psychic powers of persuasion to stop people from buying a breed of dog you could simply ban?
 
You already have two problems in this thread - A specific breed of status dog that is reputed to be inherrently dangerous, and dangerous dogs resulting from irresponsible ownership.

Like I said before, treating the individual symptoms separately does nothing to address the root cause.
The issue of status dogs is just one of many different symptoms resulting from the same root cause.
Why would you think an expensive silo approach resulting in problem chasing is the solution?
So, does your dog still bite the Postman then?
 
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Elaborate... you seem to be conflating rather different things here. The Gurkha thing was lobbying the government, Live aid was raising money for charity..

WTF does these have to do with using magical psychic powers of persuasion to stop people from buying a breed of dog you could simply ban?


See - No magic, and no need for the simpleton's solution, either.

So, does your dog still bite the Postman then?
Postman no delivery letter post... at least not in the last couple of days, anyway.

But none of my dogs ever bit him, either.
 
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