Does something need to be done about dogs?

Milan and Fennell seem to have a similar claim, in that their methods work for any dog and if it doesn't then you're just not doing them right.
i must be showing my age but not heard of either of them.

i did used to watch Barbara Woodhouse on the telly back in the day however.... .oh and 1 man and his dog (probably couldnt get away with calling a show that now!)
 
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That's like claiming the police are allowed to execute people and then showing an example of armed police shooting someone in self-defense - it's totally irrelevant to say the police having a suspected murderer in a jail cell but not enough evidence to prosecute - no they can't just shoot the suspected murderer they've arrested!
But they *are* empowered under that specific law to destroy the dog if it is presenting a danger to the public while they themselves are there.
Case in point, when they shot the two dogs in London that were still on the lead and not actualy attacking anyone.
They also have additional powers if they already have the dog detained, but decide it would not be safe to return it to the owner.

Again pay attention to the context, the dog was seized - that would have required court approval or permission from the owner (that an out of control dog in the street, actively posing a threat could be shot is irrelevant) - again they wanted to put the dog down but the ower didn't give them permission ergo it was handed back.
The dog was seized because Police have the power under Section 3 DDA to seize a dog of any breed that they judge to be dangerously out of control. No court permission needed, and the reporting guidelines put more emphasis on recording reasons if the dog was not seized.
After the incident itself has been calmed down then they would need to go to court to get a destruction order under Section 4B DDA, which is a civil proceeding undertaken without prosecuting the owner, or under Section 3 which is a criminal offence in which the owner is prosecuted and any resulting destruction order is secondary.

I literally explained this to you several posts back - if it was a banned breed then they have a lower threshold for action ergo could have likely gotten a court order - it's not that difficult to follow but your replies are all over the place so far.
If it was a banned breed it could have been seized under Section 1 instead of Section 3.
Section 1 just adds additional offences of custody and dealing. The powers of seizure are no different and any dog out of control is considered no less dangerous without it.

484 replies to this thread states otherwise.
Would have been a lot fewer if I didn't have to keep restating the things people were ignoring....

i must be showing my age but not heard of either of them.
i did used to watch Barbara Woodhouse on the telly back in the day however.... .oh and 1 man and his dog (probably couldnt get away with calling a show that now!)
Funnily enough, Barbara Woodhouse was my first dog trainer back around 1984. She had a lot of good points and techniques in her methods, and she was one of the first to use positive reinforcement training... but I felt she was still too 'old school' with her use of choke chains and yanking the dog on its lead has since shown to be highly detrimental.

Like **** you have, every time I tell you to roll over you just stare at me wagging your tail :mad:
I hear your words, but I don't see your treats.... You don't work for free, and neither do I!! :p

I'll just sit here licking my balls while that sinks into your big hooman brain...
 
But they *are* empowered under that specific law to destroy the dog if it is presenting a danger to the public while they themselves are there.

No one said they weren't, ditto to you waffling on about the dog being seized - do you want to address the point made re: destroying it once seized as you seem to have posted yet another multi-quote wall of text going off on irrelevant tangents?
 
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Would have been a lot fewer if I didn't have to keep restating the things people were ignoring....
We both know thats BS, you clearly get off on mental gymnastics and telling users how wrong they are.

Maybe we all would reply to you less if you provided a sensible solution out of this.
 
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I said 'may', as I didn't know, hence phrasing it as a question!
For example, we're not allowed to use certain customer data even if it is posted publicly on every website in the world - Access does not automatically entitle us to use.
I'm surprised that things like home address are publicly available on Facebook, though, either through privacy settings not being applied or the individual actually posting the details publicly.

Apologies, didn’t see the “may” in that context. There is no may about it. It’s not a GDPR breech.

Who is “we”? Your employer? That’s your employers policy if so and Nothing to do with GDPR. Access doesn’t mean automatic entitlement to use no. But publicly available information isn’t just access.

If you use information that you’ve gotten that was given you for a reason and you aren’t using it for that legitimate reason, yes it’s an issue.

If something is public, anyone can use it for any reason. It’s not private information anymore.
 
No one said they weren't, ditto to you waffling on about the dog being seized - do you want to address the point made re: destroying it once seized as you seem to have posted yet another multi-quote wall of text going off on irrelevant tangents?
Once seized, the Police, a vet or the local authority may order the destruction of the animal if they judge it to present a threat.

We both know thats BS, you clearly get off on mental gymnastics and telling users how wrong they are.
You're projecting again...

Maybe we all would reply to you less if you provided a sensible solution out of this.
Better you just read what I post so I don't have to keep repeating it...

Apologies, didn’t see the “may” in that context. There is no may about it. It’s not a GDPR breech.
Then there's no good reason I can think of and the Police were just being lazy about it?

Who is “we”? Your employer? That’s your employers policy if so and Nothing to do with GDPR. Access doesn’t mean automatic entitlement to use no. But publicly available information isn’t just access.
Employer, yes.
We're limited on what data we can use, even if publicly available, depending on source, accuracy and purpose.
For example, if we were to serve legal notice, an address on social media is not considered reliably accurate. We have to go to more official records, such as Land Registry.
 
Once seized, the Police, a vet or the local authority may order the destruction of the animal if they judge it to present a threat.

Nope, once seized that requires a court order.

Section 2 is the only part still in force: it says that if a magistrates' court receives a complaint that a dog is dangerous, the court can order the dog to be destroyed, or it can order the owner to keep the dog under proper control, and if that order isn't followed, the court can impose a fine.
^^^ that's still in force.

If you disagree then link to what authority the police have *once seized*. You're just making the mistake pointed out before for example the police can shoot a terrorist in the street, that doesn't mean they can just kill one they've taken into custody.
 
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Then there's no good reason I can think of and the Police were just being lazy about it?

Correct. Hence my recommendation to put in a complaint.

Employer, yes.
We're limited on what data we can use, even if publicly available, depending on source, accuracy and purpose.
For example, if we were to serve legal notice, an address on social media is not considered reliably accurate. We have to go to more official records, such as Land Registry.

What your employer does and doesn’t allow is your companies policy, and may not have anything to do with GDPR rules.

Legal notice doesn’t have anything to do with GDPR rules either. These are all separate things.
 
Nope, once seized that requires a court order.
So I bring up powers under one Act and you cite a completely different Act?

If you disagree then link to what authority the police have *once seized*. You're just making the mistake pointed out before for example the police can shoot a terrorist in the street, that doesn't mean they can just kill one they've taken into custody.

No they can't "just kill it", except in extreme circumstances... but where they believe the dog to be dangerously out of control, and that returning custody to its owner (or whoever is supposed to be in charge of it) would present an ongoing threat, there are certain people authorised to approve the destruction of the animal, as explained above.

The Police cannot destroy the dog under Section 1 of the DDA, as that has to come from a court following an investigation into the breed of dog... But they can do it (with the authorisation described above) under Section 4B, and if they're not intending to prosecute a person then the decision can be made within hours of the initial seizure.

Where they are intending to prosecute a person, the dog then constitutes evidence and since a destruction order may be an outcome of the trial, the accused must be afforded the time to prepare both their defence and any appeal, so the dog can't be destroyed until the case is concluded.

'Dangerously Out Of Control' means when there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that the dog will injure any person, whether or not it does. This is regardless of whether the dog is on or off its lead.
So the fact that the dog was not only out of control, but did also cause harm, confirms the offence and makes it an aggravated offence.

The CPS guidance says, "Section 10(3) of the 1991 Act provides that a dog shall be regarded as dangerously out of control on any occasion on which there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will injure any person or assistance dog, whether or not it actually does so (unless the dog was being used for a lawful purpose by a constable or person in service of the Crown). See R v PY [2019] EWCA Crim 17 for guidance on lawful purpose.
Aggressive behaviour towards a person will almost always be grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will cause injury to demonstrate that it is dangerously out of control
".


So it's already bitten someone, is dangerously out of control by definition, and Police (in 2023) also know the type is about to be banned yet no prosecution of a person seems forthcoming - What about this suggests there's no grounds for destruction?


What your employer does and doesn’t allow is your companies policy, and may not have anything to do with GDPR rules.
Legal notice doesn’t have anything to do with GDPR rules either. These are all separate things.
The private individual data we use must be accurate, under GDPR - We can't serve notice using 'something we got off Facebook', any more than we can bill a bank account just because someone on Twitter says that's their details - It's not considered secure nor the data reliable.

I also understand we cannot use anything off social media, either private or publicly posted, unless the private individual first gives us permission to use it for specifically stated purposes. So while we can just use Councillor Jim Smith's work address, as it's posted on a professional directory, we can't email Mrs Miggins or post her a bill even if she put her email and home address on her Facebook page unless she gives it to us directly. We have to get that data through more official means.
 
'Dangerously Out Of Control' means when there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that the dog will injure any person, whether or not it does. This is regardless of whether the dog is on or off its lead.
So the fact that the dog was not only out of control, but did also cause harm, confirms the offence and makes it an aggravated offence.

The CPS guidance says, "Section 10(3) of the 1991 Act provides that a dog shall be regarded as dangerously out of control on any occasion on which there are grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will injure any person or assistance dog, whether or not it actually does so (unless the dog was being used for a lawful purpose by a constable or person in service of the Crown). See R v PY [2019] EWCA Crim 17 for guidance on lawful purpose.
Aggressive behaviour towards a person will almost always be grounds for reasonable apprehension that it will cause injury to demonstrate that it is dangerously out of control
".

Yeah already addressed this - the police can shoot a terrorist during a terror attack, that doesn't mean they can execute them in some holding cells later.

The dog was seized, you're just getting confused here by referring to guidance re: dangerously out-of-control dogs but we're talking about a dog that has been seized by police!

Once seized, the Police, a vet or the local authority may order the destruction of the animal if they judge it to present a threat.

That's incorrect - they require a court order! This is why they had to asked the owner and then when the owner refused they handed back the dog, if they could have just taken the decision to put it down themselves they'd not have needed to ask the owner!
 
Seems like quite a few are being destroyed after the ban:

Couple of interesting points in that article.

"But in many areas dog attacks show no sign of falling. Of the 25 police forces that responded to BBC Freedom of Information Act requests, 22 said they were on course to see more reported incidents this year.

Lisa Willis, who was mauled by an XL bully months after the ban, said the attack had felt like a "horror movie" and the law was "useless".
She said owners of dogs like the one that savaged her arm should be banned from buying further animals. However, in her case, the owner had replaced his dog "within weeks"."

"When the law was introduced, the UK government suggested there were about 10,000 XL bully dogs in England and Wales, but that was a vast underestimate - there are now more than 57,000 of the dogs registered with the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Defra)."

Most likely there's at least a few thousand more unregistered ones.

Destroy the lot of them.
 
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It'll only be the responsible* owners that have now seen the reality of the breed and what it can do choosing or accepting that the dog needs to be destroyed. The morons that don't think cuddly Tyrone will ever even growl at a baby are the ones that keep theirs.

*they weren't responsible in the first place for not researching the breed as diligently as they could have, or just ignored all the warning signs before getting a dog almost 99% of people will NEVER have under full control in a public or private setting.
 
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