VXR8 is cool and rare, but I'd take the 6.2l AMG Merc saloon every time, drive both, but the Merc is just vastly all round better car and maybe VXR8 and AMG Mercs are both probably around 15-25k, though I suspect VXR8 will have cheaper running and servicing cost.
E46 / E92 M3 advice
- Thread starter Robbo
- Start date
VXR8 is cool and rare, but I'd take the 6.2l AMG Merc saloon every time, drive both, but the Merc is just vastly all round better car and maybe VXR8 and AMG Mercs are both probably around 15-25k, though I suspect VXR8 will have cheaper running and servicing cost.
Soldato
- Joined
- 19 Oct 2008
- Posts
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I'd probably go with the later E92 now. Will probably cost more to run and maintain and is heavier however.
E46 M3 is a great car though. Never owned one myself but loved the E86 Z4 M Coupe I had (same engine along with some of the CSL parts in the Z4 body including manifold and brakes if I remember correctly). If going E46 I'd pick up one of the later cars. Took the Z4 from about 6000 miles to 74k-ish. Many miles of fun
E46 M3 is a great car though. Never owned one myself but loved the E86 Z4 M Coupe I had (same engine along with some of the CSL parts in the Z4 body including manifold and brakes if I remember correctly). If going E46 I'd pick up one of the later cars. Took the Z4 from about 6000 miles to 74k-ish. Many miles of fun
A neighbor of mine has an E46 M3 with a transplanted V8 from an E92 bolted in after the 3.2 decided to eat itself, does also own a few E34 M5's...
I had a desire for a Vauxhall Monaro for all 6.0 litres of it, so I went and bought one and don't regret it one bit, sounds fantastic. Everyone should at some point in their life own a V8.
I've owned both (3 x E46's and an E92). If I was buying now and it was my only car I'd go with the E92. The E46 maintenance is too much IMO for a daily driver. The E92 is more reliable, faster and more refined.
If it was a second car I'd go for the E46. Hands down the most fun, balanced and pleasing car I've owned was my CS.
If it was a second car I'd go for the E46. Hands down the most fun, balanced and pleasing car I've owned was my CS.
Soldato
When did Acme get an E92 M3?
Talk about armchair expert!
Talk about armchair expert!
Soldato
I'd get an E92 over an E46. Both are fantastic cars but the E46 M3 has realllly had it's time now and has too many issues to run one every day.
A later E92 M3 has that perfect strike of modern touches with old school characteristics. My advice would be to get one with EDC and DCT and also get one with the later iDrive.
A later E92 M3 has that perfect strike of modern touches with old school characteristics. My advice would be to get one with EDC and DCT and also get one with the later iDrive.
Soldato
As much as I love my E46 and wouldn't change it for an E92 at the moment, For most people, I agree with this, when I've toyed around looking at E93 convertibles, I've put EDC / DCT and CiC iDrive as essential.
But with the OP's £10K figure, I'd just look on enthusiast forums and find a well looked after E46 or E92 and go for one that's been looked after, as £10K is super bottom end E92 money and you still not enough to have to be diligent in weeding out the really neglected E46's.
A minor consideration are running costs, the E46 for me has almost fallen under classic car territory insurance wise @£290 a year and its' £325 RFL vs the E93 quotes of £476 insurance / £570 road tax, and considering I only do 3-4K Miles a year in it as a weekend thing..
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Man of Honour
At some point the throttle actuators will need replacing but thats not a huge job, I've read countless threads on Rod bearings and came to the conclusion the americans seem to have more issues than we do over here, Although some forums will have you believe the countrys full of m3s at the roadside in a puddle of oil after having spun a rod..
I've had mine for 4.5 years and have cover 70k miles give or take. That's a lot of miles to do on such a car, and at this age, with that kind of usage I have seen through almost all of the usual issues and refreshes required on them, some at great cost as some of you will recall.
The conrod bearing shells do affect both S54 and S65, buying a used car with many owners you won't know what kind of life its had, so unless you send oil samples away to test for copper content, you won't know the state of the shells and there's no tell tale sign when they're on their way, they just fail as I found out at approx ~114k miles (now on 119.5k miles).
A lot of internet chatter is worst case scenario tbf, but things like this, because it's not an easy thing to diagnose unless you send oil samples away, it's better just to get the shells refreshed if buying a used example unless the previous owner has paperwork showing it's already been done.
From my research and experience it appears to be something that comes about moreso on the E46 M3 because of the variable redline lights on the tach. In stock configuration, the tach lights reflect water temp not oil temp. So naturally the lights reach 7500rpm much sooner than the oil reaches optimum temp. People unaware see this and think it's suddenly fine to start putting their foot down. The oil is still thick and not in an efficient state to provide adequate lubrication around the bearings slowly building up the damage on the shells. The CSL tach lights reflect actual oil temp. You can have the same coded in through the S54 utility and a OBD cable. I've had various coding tweaks like this done to mine just for convenience.
Aside form that, these are high revving engines that you naturally want to explore a lot, it's just addictive and the sound is amazing so naturally people will do just that.
I only knew about all this after the worst happened. I drive with mechanical sympathy but am the 4th owner, and I guess given the mileage I've done, it was just a matter of time. It was on my list of items to be done, but I didn't expect they would fail any time soon due to the way I drive. I just didn't factor in previous owners.
If you buy a manual, then this is the single major thing to be aware of. I would check all paperworks before buying and ask the owner, or the previous owner on the V5 if the current one has no idea. It's a couple of grand job to do and should factor in to the purchase price if there;s no record of it being done and the car is around 80k miles. There was word of BMW later acknowledging that the bearing shells are a service item that should be changed at around 80k miles as well. Can't recall where I read it but BMW didn't acknowledge it at first until years later.
If you're going to be putting miles on it and enjoying it properly, then it's certainly something to keep in mind.
Pretty much everything else is common faults as per any other E46, most are easy fixes and don't cost the earth. There is a fair list of age related refreshes and things.
In terms of numbers, I paid £13k for it and have spent the more than that on maintenance, consumables, this includes the replacement engine and labour of course.
Also remember don't get a 2006, get a 2005. It is exempt London's ULEZ as it's Euro 4, and of course half the tax price
If I had silly disposable funds then my ideal car garage would feature an M3 CS with Evolve's carbon fibre intake penum and the AP Racing BBK along with the upholstery re-leathered in quilted cinnamon and extended leather along the dash and centre console. Can't think of anything better to shake an aubergine emoji at really.
Completely preferential choice really. To me the E92 as a cabin is not as nice or at the quality of the solid plastics and styling of the E46. The E92 is already not ageing well whereas the E46 looks more and more desirable each year both inside and out (when kept in good condition). No denying the N/A V8 engine though, but the engine is just one (albeit big) part of the car that makes the ownership experience what it is.
Personally though I think if you were buying an E46 M3 now, you'd really have to have your heart into one off the back of always wanting one and needing that straight 6 power delivery in your life. There are times where you might sit back after a bill and go "why even bother..." but then when it's all fixed and you're out on a winding road and hear the induction noise and the way it feels at 6000-8000rpm, you remember it's totally worth all efforts.
I'd really like to own one for maybe a year or two, just for the S65 alone, but my heart wouldn't be in it because the cabin and the way it sits on the road just doesn't tickle me the way the E46 does and always will. As a complete driving and owning experience, it's E46 for me!
So it doesn't let you rev high enough to cause damage? That's pretty neat to have that safeguard in place.
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Caporegime
To be honest it’s a pointless ‘feature’ and doesn’t help a lot.
People go on about keeping revs low with some arbitrary number but if this is meaning driving everywhere in too high a gear with their foot down then it’s going to be a lot worse.
Just drive the car gently till it’s warmed up. Hardly difficult
People go on about keeping revs low with some arbitrary number but if this is meaning driving everywhere in too high a gear with their foot down then it’s going to be a lot worse.
Just drive the car gently till it’s warmed up. Hardly difficult
Soldato
I really enjoyed my E46 M3 despite it being SMG, I'd get one again, possibly in a manual. The SMG wasn't too bad though, certainly not as bad as people make out.
There were a few things I got done as preventative, otherwise it may be in the back of your mind. The rear subframe reinforcement, the SMG pump and the VANOS. The pump you can wait till it fails but the VANOS i just got the full seal and rebuild kit and sent it to BMW. It felt excellent after I had this done so it must deteriorate over time. Such a fun and well balanced car.
There were a few things I got done as preventative, otherwise it may be in the back of your mind. The rear subframe reinforcement, the SMG pump and the VANOS. The pump you can wait till it fails but the VANOS i just got the full seal and rebuild kit and sent it to BMW. It felt excellent after I had this done so it must deteriorate over time. Such a fun and well balanced car.
Man of Honour
Above all else, remember, an old E46 is now a problem child, but it's still your child :
Soldato
Honda's have a rev limiter, but only when stationary, they bounce just before vtec normally, so on my K24 its about 4.5krpm
Associate
Old thread I know, but I wanted to point out a few things.
Even with the lead/copper bearings, oil analysis will not always pick up failing bearings, so you can't rely on that, see here for my data on that.
DCT or manual makes no difference to a potential rod bearing failure.
Robbo
What did you buy in the end?
Almost no one posts good ones because almost none of them come out good, see this thread with hundreds of photos of bearings pulled from different S65's, most of these people didn't know what they'd be like beforehand and changed them preventatively. So far I've gone through the 1st 48 pages categorising the bearings wear state, out of over 150 different engine's photos I've looked at, only 2 sets have normal wear!
I'll be going through the whole thread and categorising all decent photos, then I will post my list along with links to how bearings should look like with normal wear to the bearings (from any engine).
Btw, normal wear should barely be visible, wearing though the 1st layer, in say a lead/copper bearing, is not normal wear (unless the engine's done a lot of mileage, perhaps 200k+), nor is wearing out the micro grooves in the later tin/alu bearings. When I say normal wear, I mean as detailed by Mahle(Clevite), ACL and King bearings.
Re rod knock, I thought that too originally, but after lots of reading around I found that by the time you hear rod knock, it's probably already too late. I've read through every single blown engine report in this thread, (about 200), where people do hear rod knock (often they don't!) and have stopped ASAP, I only recall a few where the crank wasn't scored up by a spun bearing. (Gibbo was lucky as well as attentive).
And your way off about the fix (for most people it seems anyway), the (proper) fix is to put in bearings with greater clearance, as the std clearance by BMW (at the lower end of the tolerance range, especially for the older bearings) is way too tight for the revs the engine can do and the oil they spec (as per recommendations by the manufactures of the bearings, e.g Mahle, ACL, and King).
Sure, ragging it from cold will greatly accelerate wear, but when (if) you go through the rod bearing condition thread, see the photos, and see that most people state they did warm it up, and yet their bearings were in a rough state, are you saying they are nearly all lying??
Obviously we won't normally know what previous owners did, but it can't be just to some people not warming it up properly. Otherwise all high revving engines would regularly suffer such failures (e.g Google Honda S2000 rod bearing failures, and see how few hits their are).
Btw, I'm not claiming that all or nearly engines have failed, maybe it's only 1% of them?? (somehow I think more though). And some have gone well over a 100k miles without issues. But if they fail, the cost of failure is severe. Last time I looked a 2nd hand engine is about £8k (if you can find one), a new crank is ~£3k (if the block is ok), not to mention the huge amount of labour!
So yea, I agree with the statement you must change rod bearings (unless proven to have already been done of course
), not because it definitely will fail (good chance it won't), but because of the cost of it if it does fail vs getting rod bearings done. It's not scaremongering, it's very real.
When I eventually manage to get the bearings I want I will be changing them in my M3.
StonedPenguin
The US has far more M3's than we do, so in part at least that's why they have more problems.
Vita
Some people do exaggerate how often it happens, that's true, and yes people tend to only post bad news to forums, but bear in mind that many people who have taken their M3s to garages with failed engines won't post at all to forums. We have no idea of proportions of either camp of course. But this is where the rod bearing condition thread I linked above is a better source, most people their have had their bearings changed preventatively. If the problem was rare, then so would worn bearings be, sadly they're not.
Gibbo
Being under 75k is nowhere near a guarantee it'll be ok, sure it'll cut the odds somewhat, but plenty (enough) have failed under that mileage.
PS I avoided the DCT box as I didn't want the long term possibilities of problems (although they seem to reliable so far....), and avoided EDC because when the shocks fail, they are silly money! (but yea the EDC option is a better drive).
Even with the lead/copper bearings, oil analysis will not always pick up failing bearings, so you can't rely on that, see here for my data on that.
DCT or manual makes no difference to a potential rod bearing failure.
Robbo
What did you buy in the end?
Almost no one posts good ones because almost none of them come out good, see this thread with hundreds of photos of bearings pulled from different S65's, most of these people didn't know what they'd be like beforehand and changed them preventatively. So far I've gone through the 1st 48 pages categorising the bearings wear state, out of over 150 different engine's photos I've looked at, only 2 sets have normal wear!
I'll be going through the whole thread and categorising all decent photos, then I will post my list along with links to how bearings should look like with normal wear to the bearings (from any engine).
Btw, normal wear should barely be visible, wearing though the 1st layer, in say a lead/copper bearing, is not normal wear (unless the engine's done a lot of mileage, perhaps 200k+), nor is wearing out the micro grooves in the later tin/alu bearings. When I say normal wear, I mean as detailed by Mahle(Clevite), ACL and King bearings.
Re rod knock, I thought that too originally, but after lots of reading around I found that by the time you hear rod knock, it's probably already too late. I've read through every single blown engine report in this thread, (about 200), where people do hear rod knock (often they don't!) and have stopped ASAP, I only recall a few where the crank wasn't scored up by a spun bearing. (Gibbo was lucky as well as attentive).
And your way off about the fix (for most people it seems anyway), the (proper) fix is to put in bearings with greater clearance, as the std clearance by BMW (at the lower end of the tolerance range, especially for the older bearings) is way too tight for the revs the engine can do and the oil they spec (as per recommendations by the manufactures of the bearings, e.g Mahle, ACL, and King).
Sure, ragging it from cold will greatly accelerate wear, but when (if) you go through the rod bearing condition thread, see the photos, and see that most people state they did warm it up, and yet their bearings were in a rough state, are you saying they are nearly all lying??
Obviously we won't normally know what previous owners did, but it can't be just to some people not warming it up properly. Otherwise all high revving engines would regularly suffer such failures (e.g Google Honda S2000 rod bearing failures, and see how few hits their are).
Btw, I'm not claiming that all or nearly engines have failed, maybe it's only 1% of them?? (somehow I think more though). And some have gone well over a 100k miles without issues. But if they fail, the cost of failure is severe. Last time I looked a 2nd hand engine is about £8k (if you can find one), a new crank is ~£3k (if the block is ok), not to mention the huge amount of labour!
So yea, I agree with the statement you must change rod bearings (unless proven to have already been done of course
), not because it definitely will fail (good chance it won't), but because of the cost of it if it does fail vs getting rod bearings done. It's not scaremongering, it's very real.When I eventually manage to get the bearings I want I will be changing them in my M3.
StonedPenguin
The US has far more M3's than we do, so in part at least that's why they have more problems.
Vita
Some people do exaggerate how often it happens, that's true, and yes people tend to only post bad news to forums, but bear in mind that many people who have taken their M3s to garages with failed engines won't post at all to forums. We have no idea of proportions of either camp of course. But this is where the rod bearing condition thread I linked above is a better source, most people their have had their bearings changed preventatively. If the problem was rare, then so would worn bearings be, sadly they're not.
Gibbo
Being under 75k is nowhere near a guarantee it'll be ok, sure it'll cut the odds somewhat, but plenty (enough) have failed under that mileage.
PS I avoided the DCT box as I didn't want the long term possibilities of problems (although they seem to reliable so far....), and avoided EDC because when the shocks fail, they are silly money! (but yea the EDC option is a better drive).
There is zero proof that bigger clearances help. Not enough miles have been put on them. Plus you will only end up starving the mains by creating extra oil losses at the rods.
I don’t need google. My old S2000 spun a rod bearing. Too many people get confirmation bias reading so many threads about this issue. There’s loads of bearings that come out of S65 engines that look fine too, mostly seen on the fb groups where people almost feel like they have wasted their money changing them (apart from piece of mind I guess ).
Avoiding DCT cause they might break seems odd. They are massively reliable and the fact you can get one for a grand on eBay suggest how much in demand they are. EDC is also very reliable so it’s very strange to see you avoiding a car with them incase they break.
sounds like you need to avoid a car with an S65 too
I don’t need google. My old S2000 spun a rod bearing. Too many people get confirmation bias reading so many threads about this issue. There’s loads of bearings that come out of S65 engines that look fine too, mostly seen on the fb groups where people almost feel like they have wasted their money changing them (apart from piece of mind I guess ).
Avoiding DCT cause they might break seems odd. They are massively reliable and the fact you can get one for a grand on eBay suggest how much in demand they are. EDC is also very reliable so it’s very strange to see you avoiding a car with them incase they break.
sounds like you need to avoid a car with an S65 too
Associate
Its only a weakness because idiots rev them from cold, and don't let the oil get round enough. Not really that expensive to sort either.
Personally think the E46 is over-rated. The engine IMO is cack, and they sound awful and the SMG box is awful and most of em these days are ropey chav crap. E92 by miles.
Caporegime
A design flaw is a design flaw and its a serious one. Unless you are buying a delivery miles example its a safe bet that you should get the rod bearings done as a precautionary measure.
£800 - £1200 is about normal for the job I think. Not an enormous amount, but enough to want to factor it in to any budgeting.
What kind of planet are you living on? Get out.
@mrk, get the big stick!
Associate
Its the most over-rated M engine of all time. Most of em sound like a tramp having a **** in a metal dustbin.
Caporegime
Are you talking about standing in front of them with the bonnet up listening to it clatter at idle?
Nothing about that sounds awful to me.
Perhaps you have very talented tramps round your way?
Associate
Simon
So inadequate clearances doesn't matter??
True the bigger clearance bearings haven't yet proven themselves in the long run, but seeing as they correct a known flaw, it's a good thing to try.
Starving the mains? What? Are you familiar with the an the lube system in engines? The oil is fed from the block, to the mains and then the big ends. Increased clearance in the big ends will increase oil flow through the mains, now in a fixed volume (traditional) oil pump that would result in a drop in oil pressure, but the S65 has a variable volume oil pump, tests have shown that increasing the bearing clearance to 0.0597 mm 0.00235 inch (BE bearings spec) has next to no drop in pressure (a few PSI in some scenarios). And before you call BS on that, let's see your data showing that.
I never said no S2000's spun bearings, I said few, try reading my post properly.
You claim that loads of bearings have come out looking fine, I've done a lot of searching and found very few, how about you back up your claim with some links?
Re DCT, as I said, they seem reliable so far, it's simply a case of more to go wrong, I just don't want the hassle an extra expense.
Re EDC, it's the shocks that wear out or leak, and they will sooner or later, and they're really expensive! (after a very quick look I found one front one Bilstein going for £568!).
As for the S65, I'll just change the big end bearings and it should be good. TAs were done by the previous owner.
Smokey26
Nope, as I said above, it isn't just people revving it from cold (obviously that will make it worse, as I said earlier).
I agree though the e46 M3 sounds awful (although in that video it sounds good inside), it's the exhaust that does it though, with an aftermarket exhaust they sound much better!
So inadequate clearances doesn't matter??
True the bigger clearance bearings haven't yet proven themselves in the long run, but seeing as they correct a known flaw, it's a good thing to try.
Starving the mains? What? Are you familiar with the an the lube system in engines? The oil is fed from the block, to the mains and then the big ends. Increased clearance in the big ends will increase oil flow through the mains, now in a fixed volume (traditional) oil pump that would result in a drop in oil pressure, but the S65 has a variable volume oil pump, tests have shown that increasing the bearing clearance to 0.0597 mm 0.00235 inch (BE bearings spec) has next to no drop in pressure (a few PSI in some scenarios). And before you call BS on that, let's see your data showing that.
I never said no S2000's spun bearings, I said few, try reading my post properly.
You claim that loads of bearings have come out looking fine, I've done a lot of searching and found very few, how about you back up your claim with some links?
Re DCT, as I said, they seem reliable so far, it's simply a case of more to go wrong, I just don't want the hassle an extra expense.
Re EDC, it's the shocks that wear out or leak, and they will sooner or later, and they're really expensive! (after a very quick look I found one front one Bilstein going for £568!).
As for the S65, I'll just change the big end bearings and it should be good. TAs were done by the previous owner.
Smokey26
Nope, as I said above, it isn't just people revving it from cold (obviously that will make it worse, as I said earlier).
I agree though the e46 M3 sounds awful (although in that video it sounds good inside), it's the exhaust that does it though, with an aftermarket exhaust they sound much better!