ECHR rules that defamation of Mohammed doesn't count as free expression

When pulled up in court the casual use of words is not acceptable.

If E.S. had specified, "had sex with a child" she would not have been wrong but she chose to use a label she was not capable of defending. Thus she lost.

I don't see why not, the court simply chose to pick a very narrow definition. It is a very odd ruling, there are plenty of living child sex offenders who will have been labeled "paedophile" in the press and who would have pretty much no chance of suing the various newspapers involved on the basis that they also sleep with adult women or that they only had sex with the one child etc...

Honestly you're clutching at straws trying to defend this.
 
When pulled up in court the casual use of words is not acceptable.
That's a failing of the court, and their failing doesn't magically legitimize their ruling. They chose to use a very narrow definition to get the ruling they wanted to give, people still know it's wrong.

Slavery didn't magically become wrong once it was outlawed, it was wrong before. Courts and you choosing to use narrow definitions to suit their own agendas doesn't change the fact that having sex with a six year old makes somebody a paedophile.
 
I don't see why not, the court simply chose to pick a very narrow definition. It is a very odd ruling, there are plenty of living child sex offenders who will have been labeled "paedophile" in the press and who would have pretty much no chance of suing the various newspapers involved on the basis that they also sleep with adult women or that they only had sex with the one child etc...

Honestly you're clutching at straws trying to defend this.



No, the court used the correct definition, not some Daily Mail reading mouth frothing moron's definition.
 
No, the court used the correct definition, not some Daily Mail reading mouth frothing moron's definition.

They used a rather narrow definition. She's perfectly correct to point out that we'd call someone a paedophile today if they did what he did.
 
so which example were the grooming gang scum following exactly? care to elaborate

Well it certainly wasn't Mary, Joseph or Jesus.

But I'm sure that many of the 100(s) of men implicated were upstanding members of their local community (mosque) and that their role models and teachings were 100% against underage sex (rape).

I'm sure the local community takes this very seriously and took all steps necessary to expose and castigate these men.

It really makes one wonder how these crimes so seldom commited by people of this culture
 
No, the court used the correct definition, not some Daily Mail reading mouth frothing moron's definition.

Frothing morons like....

The Cambridge dictionary

paedophile -
someone who is sexually interested in children

Oxford English dictionaries

Definition of paedophile in English:
paedophile

(US pedophile)

NOUN
  • A person who is sexually attracted to children.

And Collins?

paedophile
(piːdəfaɪl )

A paedophile is a person, usually a man, who is sexually attracted to children.
 
I don't see why not, the court simply chose to pick a very narrow definition. It is a very odd ruling, there are plenty of living child sex offenders who will have been labeled "paedophile" in the press and who would have pretty much no chance of suing the various newspapers involved on the basis that they also sleep with adult women or that they only had sex with the one child etc...

Honestly you're clutching at straws trying to defend this.
That's a failing of the court, and their failing doesn't magically legitimize their ruling. They chose to use a very narrow definition to get the ruling they wanted to give, people still know it's wrong.

Slavery didn't magically become wrong once it was outlawed, it was wrong before. Courts and you choosing to use narrow definitions to suit their own agendas doesn't change the fact that having sex with a six year old makes somebody a paedophile.
They used a rather narrow definition. She's perfectly correct to point out that we'd call someone a paedophile today if they did what he did.

Lets do a bundle answer since it's nothing actually new being said.

I did actually talk about protesting false labelling with the word "paedophile" replying to @Caracus2k when he said the same thing but TLDR apparently.

That is all illegal here and now. That is child sexual abuse and you will be done for the crime of child sexual abuse.

To be legally correct to call that person a paedophile it would have to have to be proven there is a mental condition of being attracted to children. As opposed to a blunt but quick example of not caring what age someone is. That would make you a broad spectrum sexual offender which isn't exactly an improvement.

But yes, you could theoretically have a case if something like a major paper used the term without it being a proven mental condition. Your name would be **** before and **** after and a double helping for the extra publicity but sure, theoretically you could challenge it.

As said quite a few times now the court has no business using casual labels in a place where the real meaning of every word said is important and in fact their job.

Which leads on to everything else I bundled to reply.

The court has no right to get into the business of using false labels. The casual use of the word paedophile is extremely broad and emotive and greatly undermines the reality of the mental condition it slurs. Officially declaring the word paedophile to mean a sexual offender (or even someone who legally has sex with children) would itself be a gross miscarriage of justice.

As I said several times, there isn't a crime of paedophilia and a court won't use the word paedophile just for for child sexual abuse because they know the real meaning. All that happened here was they remained consistent.


E.S. without doubt was playing political games but unlike more successful players with an anti-religious agenda she didn't check she was legally watertight before the stunt. Ultimately she didn't have the capability to prove paedophilia by the standard a court insists on..
 
Fact remains it was a ridiculously silly ruling, she shouldn’t need to meet some narrow defenition - she questioned what we’d call it today and she is absolutely correct re: what we’d call that today. She didn’t make any specific medical/mental health claims.
 
upholding her appeal

You're not selling it.

E.S. was not in possession of enough facts to back up the statement she made when officially challenged.

It's a simple case in the end even if it does have divisive factors such as religion and child sex to provide a vast amount of distraction.
 
If you're not interested in the thread then don't post in it, you're hardly in a position to talk about posting rubbish given your first post in here. If you want to attempt to formulate a point of view or attempt to engage in some form of discussion then please do go ahead.
You or anyone who believes in all this prophet rubbish should wake up to the real world, not your make believe world. Ps. I hope this Mohamed whoever you think he is died a terrible death and was eaten by maggots in his grave.
 
You're not selling it.

E.S. was not in possession of enough facts to back up the statement she made when officially challenged.

It's a simple case in the end even if it does have divisive factors such as religion and child sex to provide a vast amount of distraction.

Well likewise, I don't think you're selling it either regardless of how many times you repeat the same thing in different coloured writing.

Yes she was in possession of enough facts, he literally ****ed a kid, we all know what we'd call that today.

There is an element of the silliness of the EC's guidelines here too but even given those the court was being silly with this insistence on choosing a narrow definition of the word and making the argument that she's labeled that as his general sexual preference and pointing out his other wives etc...

The additional silliness is thanks to this idea in general that freedom of speech within the council of Europe can be constrained in order for the purposes of "preventing disorder by safeguarding religious peace and protecting religious feelings". Frankly I think mocking of religious beliefs ought to be allowed but regardless that this person has portrayed him as someone unworthy of worship or has made a potentially provocative statement by highlighting something he is documented as doing and questioning what we'd call it today should still be allowed regardless of the silly restrictive nature of freedom of speech within the EC.

You or anyone who believes in all this prophet rubbish should wake up to the real world, not your make believe world. Ps. I hope this Mohamed whoever you think he is died a terrible death and was eaten by maggots in his grave.

I'm really not sure what you're smoking but your posts so far aren't making any sense. What do you think I believe exactly?
 
I can see no agreement possible here. There is no point in me repeating myself if people insist that the standard not used by any court is the one that should have been used.

Anyway let me just get some popcorn, I can see dowie getting bashed for being a Muslim.
 
I can see no agreement possible here. There is no point in me repeating myself if people insist that the standard not used by any court is the one that should have been used.

But that isn't what is being insisted upon. I don't think that this narrow definition of paedophilia matters too much, she didn't specify that she meant some strict psychological definition simply asked what we'd call him today.

Here is a British Barrister who thinks the ruling is dreadful, he certainly isn't hung up on the fact she's technically got the labelling of "paedophile" wrong in a strict sense of the word:

https://www.scottishlegal.com/article/matthew-scott-ecthr-blasphemy-law-judgment-is-dreadful

The court considered that the right to freedom of religion under Article 9 included a right not to be seriously offended. Whilst the religious could not expect their beliefs to be exempt from all criticism (that’s generous):

“… the general requirement to ensure the peaceful enjoyment of the rights guaranteed under Article 9 to the holders of such beliefs including a duty to avoid as far as possible an expression that is, in regard to objects of veneration, gratuitously offensive to others and profane.”

“Where such expressions go beyond the limits of a critical denial of other people’s religious beliefs and are likely to incite religious intolerance, for example in the event of an improper or even abusive attack on an object of religious veneration, a State may legitimately consider them to be incompatible with respect for the freedom of thought, conscience and religion and take proportionate restrictive measures.”

The court seems here to be trying, rather clumsily, to tread a delicate line between upholding the right of member states to criminalise “improper and abusive attacks” on objects of veneration and asserting that they have a duty to do so. So far it might just be possible to view the judgment as that of a cautious court wishing to give Austria – with its particular and very dark history of religious bigotry – a large “margin of appreciation,” the discretion, as it were, to make and apply its own laws in its own way.

Unfortunately, such a generous view of the decision does not really stand up, because later on the judges seem to come down firmly in favour of member states having a duty to have such laws. The court, it noted

“had stated many times that in the context of religion member States had a duty to suppress certain forms of conduct or expression that were gratuitously offensive to others and profane.”

“There you are,” the Islamists will say, and they are saying it now, “the top court in Europe says you have a duty to suppress profanity.”

Well, it’s not quite as bad as that, is it? After all the court said that only “certain forms of conduct or expression” must be suppressed. Nice, polite arguments are fine, as long as they are not gratuitously offensive.

But that’s the problem with policing free speech.

I make a polite but powerful contribution to debate.

You speak bluntly and perhaps a little bit offensively.

She is gratuitously offensive, has committed blasphemy and must be hanged, or at least fined and/or imprisoned.

The reference to Muhammad’s marriage to a child bride, it seems, was “an abusive attack on the Prophet of Islam.”

Why should that make it criminal?

“The Court notes that the domestic courts extensively explained why they considered that the applicant’s statements had been capable of arousing justified indignation, namely that they had not been made in an objective manner aiming at contributing to a debate of public interest, but could only be understood as having been aimed at demonstrating that Muhammad was not a worthy subject of worship (see paragraph 22 above). The Court endorses this assessment.”

The court’s grasp of theology here is as pitiful as its exposition of the law. Muslims do not worship Muhammad – only Allah can be worshipped – although of course they venerate him.

More to the point, is it really “necessary in a democratic society” to impose a prohibition on attacking the character of a medieval warlord because to do so might suggest he is “not a worthy subject of worship?”


The court thought that:

The issue before the court therefore involves weighing up the conflicting interests of the exercise of two fundamental freedoms, namely the right of the applicant to impart to the public her views on religious doctrine on the one hand, and the right of others to respect for their freedom of thought, conscience and religion on the other.

This is legal legerdemain. The right to impart one’s views about a religion is a right to freedom of expression, a right expressly protected by Article 10, as well as a right to “manifest” one’s religion, a right protected by Article 9. The “right of others to respect for their freedom of thought conscience and religion” is very much wider than the right actually set out by Article 9:

“Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching, practice and observance.”

It is one thing to give religious people the right to think, express and practise their religion, to manifest it, to worship where and how they wish, and so on. But that is completely different from insisting that others must respect their religion, in the sense of not insulting it. That is not a right given by Article 9, and nor should it be. The court should not have conducted any “weighing up” of conflicting rights. Neither the Convention nor any other coherent principle demands that religious sensibilities should insulate religion from criticism, including mockery or insult.

Anyway let me just get some popcorn, I can see dowie getting bashed for being a Muslim.

I've got no idea what that other guy A2Z is on about, he's only made rather incoherent posts so far.
 
From the court's ruling:
"The applicant’s statements had been capable of arousing justified indignation given that they had not been made in an objective manner aimed at contributing to a debate of public interest, but could only have been understood as aimed at demonstrating that Muhammad was not a worthy subject of worship. The applicant had described herself as an expert in the field of Islamic doctrine, already having held seminars of that kind for a while, thus she had to have been aware that her statements were partly based on untrue facts and apt to arouse (justified) indignation in others. Presenting objects of religious worship in a provocative way capable of hurting the feelings of the followers of that religion could be conceived as a malicious violation of the spirit of tolerance, which was one of the bases of a democratic society."
The core Christian belief that Jesus is the son of God is outright rejected by Islam, effectively calling him a liar.
If saying that Jesus lied about his divinity (therefore not worthy of worship, presenting him in a provocative way capable of hurting the feelings of the followers of that religion, and thus conceived as a malicious violation of the spirit of tolerance) isn't a gross insult to the beliefs of all Christians, then what is?

Law – Article 10: Prescribed by law, the interference had pursued the legitimate aim of preventing disorder by safeguarding religious peace and protecting religious feelings, which corresponded to protecting the rights of others within the meaning of Article 10 § 2 of the Convention.
Who'd like to have a guess at what this means?
 
The core Christian belief that Jesus is the son of God is outright rejected by Islam, effectively calling him a liar.

No it isn't. The Quran itself states that you must believe in Jesus and Moses just as much as Abraham or Mo.

"Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."


Isn't that quote basically saying abe, ish, isaac jacob, mo, jesus et al. are ALL sons of god???


Not that I even care because its all BS but facts are facts.
 
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