Yeah it's just not ready yet for anything else but new builds.
The cost would be huuuge!
Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)
- Thread starter DXP55
- Start date
Yeah it's just not ready yet for anything else but new builds.
The cost would be huuuge!
The problem is our UK housing stock can't be readily converted into low-energy homes. The only way to do that would be sealing them airtight, which gives different issues with regards to moisture and damp
Soldato
- Joined
- 25 Mar 2004
- Posts
- 15,976
- Location
- Fareham
There do exist some interesting alternatives though, I think one of them was a heat battery - https://www.caldera.co.uk.
The negative of these is how you power it, direct from grid = bad as it gains no efficiency in kwh to heat output much like a kettle.
Solar or ASHP style external heat transference looked good.
Main benefit seems to be simpler system, should slot in where a boiler goes, and work with existing radiators and controls.
The negative of these is how you power it, direct from grid = bad as it gains no efficiency in kwh to heat output much like a kettle.
Solar or ASHP style external heat transference looked good.
Main benefit seems to be simpler system, should slot in where a boiler goes, and work with existing radiators and controls.
Soldato
- Joined
- 23 May 2006
- Posts
- 7,868
I do like the look of a heat battery.......... i guess it depends what prices look like once we hit some sort of new normal when most of our energy is renewable or nuclear. IF we go back to seeing 5p off peak electricity then a heat battery will be perfect. It doesnt really matter if it isnt more efficient than 1:1 if we have plenty of renewable offpeak power to charge them in the middle of the night.
OTOH if the new normal settles at say 25p off peak then they wont be that good................. ok to heat water in summer i support for those with Solar who can charge during the day, but no good in winter.
as for not having the power to run a bath......... whilst my lad does enjoy a bath now, i dare say baths may become a luxury item going forward.... they are pretty wasteful both in water AND energy.
OTOH if the new normal settles at say 25p off peak then they wont be that good................. ok to heat water in summer i support for those with Solar who can charge during the day, but no good in winter.
as for not having the power to run a bath......... whilst my lad does enjoy a bath now, i dare say baths may become a luxury item going forward.... they are pretty wasteful both in water AND energy.
Last edited:
Soldato
- Joined
- 13 Jul 2004
- Posts
- 20,341
- Location
- Stanley Hotel, Colorado
Yep thats correct airflow is key to reducing any damp and the rot possible in timber etc. There has to be some compromise though, not just vents always open
This story is funny but I can believe its true, cheaper to be on holiday in warmth - https://www.msn.com/en-gb/lifestyle...sedgntp&cvid=031c11aa34474513a00212ac172b432c
As long as we’re talking yet-to-be-built new builds. Housing built in the last decade, while well insulated, likely has tiny, plastic piping to similarly small radiators, both of which would likely need changing out, adding cost. Our combi will be replaced with a combi when the time comes, as we’d also need to pay a lot to re-plumb the house to include a hot water tank to reap the benefit of a system boiler, and I’m not sure the cost would be recouped in the lifetime of the boiler including gas savings.
Yeah, definitely feeling it today! Going to try and get the last rolls down over the next week or so, and will be monitoring usage (although obviously outside temperature will need to be taken into account)
I cannot imagine the cost.
I think in this house at least you'd need
- new windows
- new piping
- new radiators
- remove old boiler
- new ASHP
You'd never get cost back.
Soldato
- Joined
- 4 Aug 2007
- Posts
- 21,980
- Location
- Wilds of suffolk
I tend to agree, if my boiler needed replacing today I would be getting a new boiler.
Suggested installation being probably in the 2.5-3k region.
I may be tempted to update some other parts of the system, possibly a new megaflow etc whilst at it.
The tech in heat pumps is improving and will certainly continue to do so.
High temp variants exist now so thats less of an issue than it was, they tend to be bigger units from what I have seen as more focussed on industrial, but if you can heat water to 120c, you can heat water to 120c.
eg https://klima-therm.co.uk/products/...Yq8mteokfHwV9SEs6yIfM0skDMzkE42hoCcx4QAvD_BwE
Lets face it, probably 60-70 would be more than enough it a domestic setting
Really the key change thats needed is to get the running cost parity very close between gas and electric.
For that, without any doubt, we need a lot more cheap renewable energy, and probably nuclear.
Plus I suspect likely on demand pricing, but with some forced cheap periods as well. Eg at least 3 hours in 6am to 3pm, and at least 3 hours in 3pm to 9pm
I suspect in 10 years time replacing gas with heat pumps will be far more equivalent, in both system cost, and running cost
Suggested installation being probably in the 2.5-3k region.
I may be tempted to update some other parts of the system, possibly a new megaflow etc whilst at it.
The tech in heat pumps is improving and will certainly continue to do so.
High temp variants exist now so thats less of an issue than it was, they tend to be bigger units from what I have seen as more focussed on industrial, but if you can heat water to 120c, you can heat water to 120c.
eg https://klima-therm.co.uk/products/...Yq8mteokfHwV9SEs6yIfM0skDMzkE42hoCcx4QAvD_BwE
Lets face it, probably 60-70 would be more than enough it a domestic setting
Really the key change thats needed is to get the running cost parity very close between gas and electric.
For that, without any doubt, we need a lot more cheap renewable energy, and probably nuclear.
Plus I suspect likely on demand pricing, but with some forced cheap periods as well. Eg at least 3 hours in 6am to 3pm, and at least 3 hours in 3pm to 9pm
I suspect in 10 years time replacing gas with heat pumps will be far more equivalent, in both system cost, and running cost
Yea, we have a 2017-build and would need
- new piping for whole heating system
- all radiators replaced
- new hot water piping
- new/add in hot water tank
- new/add in ASHP
...if we wanted to go ASHP. That work would mean ripping out most ceilings and large portions of walls to get to everything - sounds horrible! We'd just need to change all hot water piping and add in a tank if we wanted to switch to a system boiler.
I think the most cost-effective thing for us would be to just replace our current 35kW combo with a much more appropriately-sized (probably about 28kW) boiler which also modulates down to <2kW for heating load, preferably even lower than 1kW if possible. Our current boiler only drops as low as 7kW so we're taking a big efficiency hit thanks to cycling
Last edited:
Yea, we have a 2017-build and would need
- new piping for whole heating system
- all radiators replaced
- new hot water piping
- new/add in hot water tank
- new/add in ASHP
...if we wanted to go ASHP. We'd just need to change all hot water piping and add in a tank if we wanted to switch to a system boiler.
I think the most cost-effective thing for us would be to just replace our current 35kW combo with a much more appropriately-sized (probably about 28kW) boiler which also modulates down to <2kW for heating load, preferably even lower than 1kW if possible. Our current boiler only drops as low as 7kW so we're taking a big efficiency hit thanks to cycling
Moving to Spain or Italy would be best for me!
Soldato
- Joined
- 4 Aug 2007
- Posts
- 21,980
- Location
- Wilds of suffolk
I don't get the issue with ripping all the pipework out, rads being replaced etc
I thought that was long gone, eg you can buy ASHP in screwfix that do upto 65c water.
www.screwfix.com
The issue is more the placement I think. I mean its a big old unit that. Well and the cost of course
I thought that was long gone, eg you can buy ASHP in screwfix that do upto 65c water.
Samsung 16kW Air-Source Heat Pump Kit 300Ltr - Screwfix
Order online at Screwfix.com. Highly efficient source of heat and hot water, where outside air is blown through a network of tubes filled with R32 refrigerant. This warms up the refrigerant, and it turns from a liquid into a gas. The gas then passes through a compressor, which adds more heat...
The issue is more the placement I think. I mean its a big old unit that. Well and the cost of course
Soldato
- Joined
- 25 Mar 2004
- Posts
- 15,976
- Location
- Fareham
In an ideal world you'd want a system that can simply feed in water at the same sort of temp and pressure as existing boilers, so existing pipework and rads just work.
But yes that ultimately boils down to what you wind up, how big it is, and what powers it to do so.
But yes that ultimately boils down to what you wind up, how big it is, and what powers it to do so.
Soldato
- Joined
- 25 Mar 2004
- Posts
- 15,976
- Location
- Fareham
You're not thinking of this the right way, you don't get all you can eat gas, you get priced units based on consumption and standing charges per day.
Monthly DD figures are sort of meaningless (especially if you have no idea how much you use).
To give 65C it'd be running full-tilt 24/7 and wouldn't manage that in colder outside temperatures, as well as dropping their efficiency to close to 100%, wiping out their advantage and adding unneeded wear and tear.I don't get the issue with ripping all the pipework out, rads being replaced etc
I thought that was long gone, eg you can buy ASHP in screwfix that do upto 65c water.
Samsung 16kW Air-Source Heat Pump Kit 300Ltr - Screwfix
Order online at Screwfix.com. Highly efficient source of heat and hot water, where outside air is blown through a network of tubes filled with R32 refrigerant. This warms up the refrigerant, and it turns from a liquid into a gas. The gas then passes through a compressor, which adds more heat...
The issue is more the placement I think. I mean its a big old unit that. Well and the cost of course
Soldato
- Joined
- 4 Aug 2007
- Posts
- 21,980
- Location
- Wilds of suffolk
Is this based on anything factual or just uninformed scaremongering?
I am seeing feedback from people who actually have ASHP as I follow some for other reasons and they do run pretty much all the time, but are designed to do so
They do a heat deheat cycle every 3 hours from what I saw when it was freezing outside. And as many have said before they are common in countries much colder than the UK
Are they all freezing to death due to their ASHP breaking down.
Gas boilers never wear out or go wrong amirite?
I don't think ASHPs are the answer for most homes. I expect ultimately we'll move over to using hydrogen pumped through the same pipes we're using now for natural gas. Perhaps gradually moving over similar to how they're slowly switching petrol over to biofuel. Worcester already have a domestic style boiler capable of running on either.
I'm pretty chuffed that my December usage with the central heating on was still less than my monthly DD amount (just). I've kept it the same since installing the solar panels so I've built up a bit of a buffer in order to get through winter without going into debt. But based on December, looks like I'm going to stay well within budget.
I'm pretty chuffed that my December usage with the central heating on was still less than my monthly DD amount (just). I've kept it the same since installing the solar panels so I've built up a bit of a buffer in order to get through winter without going into debt. But based on December, looks like I'm going to stay well within budget.
Not really a surprise, as gas has almost quadrupled in price. Only person to blame is a certain fascist madman for that one unfortunately.
Last edited:
Soldato
- Joined
- 4 Aug 2007
- Posts
- 21,980
- Location
- Wilds of suffolk
We might. Hydrogen will be as expensive as using elec though, at least.
From what I have seen its terribly inefficient (like 3 times more energy input compared to output which will be electricity as the input), will require significant grid infrastructure changes etc
I'd expect the hydrogen to be produced entirely from zero carbon energy sources. Utilise solar, wind or nuclear outside peak times while demand on the grid is low.
In reality it's so far off - we might even have fusion working by then.
Soldato
- Joined
- 4 Aug 2007
- Posts
- 21,980
- Location
- Wilds of suffolk
Yeah but its still taking Elec that can be used to very inefficiently convert it to another medium.
When we could instead be smarter on usage, charge say cars, hot sand boxes, batteries etc at that point
It would certainly be an interesting model on how the demand for this would work vs other techs, if you allowed the price to be demand based.
I would expect its inevitable, and that the pricing that would significantly flatten the demand curve where the historic high generation low usage times were made far more popular with people using it then.
I can/could for example heat my water in that window, my house batteries etc.
Fusion I am not sure we will ever crack. We certainly can't plan on it being available until it is.