Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)

[chrcoluk]

Sure, but that is nothing to do with the standing charge is it.

Well, its certainly a divide.

For me its quite simple, charges per "household" are a regressive form of charging, such as council tax, tv license and of course standing charges.

Also for people who cant afford energy costs, the sensible thing to do is to reduce consumption, but it becomes a mockery if the system fights against it by loading costs onto fixed charges. Other countries have special light user tariffs but because in the UK we seem to favour so many regressive forms of revenue collection we are sticking with it.

People who are comfortable financially and/or heavier users will of course argue it should stay the way it is.

The argument where SC is matching infrastructure costs, may or may not be right although I would dispute it it as logically higher load on the infrastructure will cause higher infrastructure costs and heavier users contribute more to that higher load.

Things funded by SC which are nothing to do with the energy suppliers (resellers) should probably be moved to be funded via general taxation. But since general taxation has a degree of linkage to "ability to pay" wealthier people pay more, then that would likely be opposed by the same people.

I am also against regional pricing.

 

[chrcoluk]

A lot of the current standing charge is covering debts owed to people by fallen suppliers and such, so in theory the SC should come down a lot once that is balanced out.

Obviously it's never going to be zero.

One would hope so, that will at least come off, I think it still hasnt been confirmed how the latest bulb losses will be recovered?

 

[HungryHippos]

One would hope so, that will at least come off, I think it still hasnt been confirmed how the latest bulb losses will be recovered?

Standing charge as I understand it. Possibly some back from Octopus should they be able to turn a profit from them.

 

[200sols]

Well, its certainly a divide.

For me its quite simple, charges per "household" are a regressive form of charging, such as council tax, tv license and of course standing charges.

Also for people who cant afford energy costs, the sensible thing to do is to reduce consumption, but it becomes a mockery if the system fights against it by loading costs onto fixed charges. Other countries have special light user tariffs but because in the UK we seem to favour so many regressive forms of revenue collection we are sticking with it.

People who are comfortable financially and/or heavier users will of course argue it should stay the way it is.

The argument where SC is matching infrastructure costs, may or may not be right although I would dispute it it as logically higher load on the infrastructure will cause higher infrastructure costs and heavier users contribute more to that higher load.

Things funded by SC which are nothing to do with the energy suppliers (resellers) should probably be moved to be funded via general taxation. But since general taxation has a degree of linkage to "ability to pay" wealthier people pay more, then that would likely be opposed by the same people.

I am also against regional pricing.

Things that are used less often often result in higher maintenance costs although I have no idea if that is the case for the grid. Presumably things have to be maintained to the same.standard so the low user low charge argument doesn't stand for me.

 

[Shoza]

I don’t get the frustration with the standing charge. My electric is £11 and my gas was £8 a month - it’s not contributing massively to my costs now. The gas and electric unit rates are..

In any case even for low usage users it’s £19 a month so a very small sum for anyone.

 

[Doobedoo]

I don’t get the frustration with the standing charge. My electric is £11 and my gas was £8 a month - it’s not contributing massively to my costs now. The gas and electric unit rates are..

In any case even for low usage users it’s £19 a month so a very small sum for anyone.

Why are your energy cost are so low?

 

[Shoza]

Why are your energy cost are so low?

They are not? I’m on standard rates everyone is offering now:

Elec

S/c - 41.20
Unit - 31.74

Gas

S/c - 27.12
Unit - 9.83

My bill for January was £247.60 so £19 standing charges hardly contributed to the pain. The £190 gas usage did.. that was 2.57p before all of this so less than a 3rd of current cost.

 

[Doobedoo]

They are not? I’m on standard rates everyone is offering now:

Elec

S/c - 41.20
Unit - 31.74

Gas

S/c - 27.12
Unit - 9.83

My bill for January was £247.60 so £19 standing charges hardly contributed to the pain. The £190 gas usage did.. that was 2.57p before all of this so less than a 3rd of current cost.

Oh I see. I red it as that was the total bill rather than just the standing charge.

Those complaining about standing charges are those that have solar/batteries ect. Because they pay very little or nothing for electricity, they begrudge having to pay the standing charge.

 

[chrcoluk]

I don’t get the frustration with the standing charge. My electric is £11 and my gas was £8 a month - it’s not contributing massively to my costs now. The gas and electric unit rates are..

In any case even for low usage users it’s £19 a month so a very small sum for anyone.

It will be situational I think.

There is people who barely have £20 to spend each month, and might only have total usage costs of say £20 month if they use so little, for them it will be very relevant.

For me the frustration is felt more on the gas even though the electricity is higher (although I currently pay much less SC due to using an older agile tariff). I use very little gas, and in the summer I actually spend more on the standing charge than I do on gas I use. Its like that for many days in the winter as well, but there has been days this winter I have used the GCH, so when looked at from a monthly perspective 2 months of the winter had higher usage costs than SC.

Interestingly though on the electric when I moved to Agile back in the summer of last year, this was initially higher unit costs compared to the SVR at the time, but the circa 60% cheaper SC offset it (circa £7 month saving), so that made the SC differential noticeable to me.

The April increase is slightly below £2 a month zero usage costs so not as significant as previous increases. I think its around 8 units a day of electric that breaks even on it, lower you lose, higher you win.

 

[Richie]

Things that are used less often often result in higher maintenance costs although I have no idea if that is the case for the grid.

That's not always true... If a car has a 2yr/18000 mile service interval then someone using it less (5000 miles per year) will have lower servicing costs than someone using it more (18000 miles per year).

Presumably things have to be maintained to the same.standard so the low user low charge argument doesn't stand for me.

May I ask what your annual average bill is under current Energy Cap pricing (hopefully you'll know your kWh usage for both Elec and Gas)?

I don’t get the frustration with the standing charge. My electric is £11 and my gas was £8 a month - it’s not contributing massively to my costs now. The gas and electric unit rates are..

In any case even for low usage users it’s £19 a month so a very small sum for anyone.

They are not? I’m on standard rates everyone is offering now:

Elec

S/c - 41.20
Unit - 31.74

Gas

S/c - 27.12
Unit - 9.83

My bill for January was £247.60 so £19 standing charges hardly contributed to the pain. The £190 gas usage did.. that was 2.57p before all of this so less than a 3rd of current cost.

Your standing charge equates to circa 8% of your bill

My standing charge (combined) is almost £24 for the same period (regional variation no doubt) and accounted for 30% of my bill... That's the difference.

 

[Shoza]

That's not always true... If a car has a 2yr/18000 mile service interval then someone using it less (5000 miles per year) will have lower servicing costs than someone using it more (18000 miles per year).



May I ask what your annual average bill is under current Energy Cap pricing (hopefully you'll know your kWh usage for both Elec and Gas)?







Your standing charge equates to circa 8% of your bill

My standing charge (combined) is almost £24 for the same period (regional variation no doubt) and accounted for 30% of my bill... That's the difference.

Yep but we both use gas & electric so we pay the same standing charge. Whether yours is currently a higher percentage of your usage or not is irrelevant you still use the infrastructure.

And my point was that £18-24 a month for almost anyone (when it was £10-£15 before) isn’t an increase worth complaining about.

 

[200sols]

That's not always true... If a car has a 2yr/18000 mile service interval then someone using it less (5000 miles per year) will have lower servicing costs than someone using it more (18000 miles per year).

Usually the lower mileage user would service yearly, they'd be on different service schedule to the high mileage driver.

May I ask what your annual average bill is under current Energy Cap pricing (hopefully you'll know your kWh usage for both Elec and Gas)?

Sure, although its irrelevant to my argument. DD is currently £285 a month, usage is roughly 4500kwh elec and 12000 for gas.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Well, its certainly a divide.

For me its quite simple, charges per "household" are a regressive form of charging, such as council tax, tv license and of course standing charges.

Also for people who cant afford energy costs, the sensible thing to do is to reduce consumption, but it becomes a mockery if the system fights against it by loading costs onto fixed charges. Other countries have special light user tariffs but because in the UK we seem to favour so many regressive forms of revenue collection we are sticking with it.

People who are comfortable financially and/or heavier users will of course argue it should stay the way it is.

The argument where SC is matching infrastructure costs, may or may not be right although I would dispute it it as logically higher load on the infrastructure will cause higher infrastructure costs and heavier users contribute more to that higher load.

Things funded by SC which are nothing to do with the energy suppliers (resellers) should probably be moved to be funded via general taxation. But since general taxation has a degree of linkage to "ability to pay" wealthier people pay more, then that would likely be opposed by the same people.

I am also against regional pricing.

Its very difficult even as someone who does this sort of thing in my day job (working out cost recovery models etc), without seeing the costs and how they relate to fixed and variable service provisions
Costs are typically, variable, stepped and fixed. I suspect a lot of the grid is really fixed but with a chunk stepped. Eg you may be able to serve 10gWh at a certain location but if the demand goes above that a new chunk of investment is required, so a step but that may supply say 15gWh max in future.
Things like meters are obviously fixed per address.

IIRC a fair chunk of the added SC was also from adverse weather we had last couple of years. All those engineers working hundreds of miles from home for 72 hour shifts were not doing it as regular service but due to the sheer damage to the infrastructure.

There was until recently often tariffs that had low SC and slightly higher unit costs (typically aimed at low users) and higher SC but lower unit costs typically aimed at higher users. Its precisely why you needed to enter reasonable usage into the comparison sites so they could correctly work out where your costs would be on each tariff.

 

[Richie]

Yep but we both use gas & electric so we pay the same standing charge. Whether yours is currently a higher percentage of your usage or not is irrelevant you still use the infrastructure.

That's just a "tough **** mate, suck it up" argument... not very helpful... (See my very last paragraph about usage)

And my point was that £18-24 a month for almost anyone (when it was £10-£15 before) isn’t an increase worth complaining about.

Again, that is incorrect and I already posted it just earlier today.

In 12 months, my SC went from 14p/day to 77p/ day so £4.34/month to £23.87/month, a 450% increase.... Quite significant.

Usually the lower mileage user would service yearly, they'd be on different service schedule to the high mileage driver.

No the lower mileage user wouldn't. The service intervals on a huge amount of modern cars are 18,000 miles OR 2 years (whichever comes soonest) so someone doing 5,000mpa would service once every 2 years whereas the person doing 18,000 miles would service every year for the same vehicle.

Anyways, it was an example where higher usage users do in fact pay more than lower usage users to counter what you had said:

Things that are used less often often result in higher maintenance costs...

Sure, although its irrelevant to my argument. DD is currently £285 a month, usage is roughly 4500kwh elec and 12000 for gas.

It's relevant in that, being a higher usage user, your bill would likely increase if SC was put onto units instead.

As a percentage of your annual bill (and using current energy cap prices) you SC accounts for an average of circa 7% of your bill so, to you, it's an insignificant amount...


As I noted earlier - it's split into 2 camps. Lower users have an issue with the SC and higher users don't see what the issue is


I guess what would be really helpful is this - does using the Elec and gas networks more cause an increase in infrastructure maintenance etc? (Kinda like the car servicing example above) or is it a fixed cost irrespective of usage?

 

[200sols]

I guess what would be really helpful is this - does using the Elec and gas networks more cause an increase in infrastructure maintenance etc? (Kinda like the car servicing example above) or is it a fixed cost irrespective of usage?

It's a cost to maintain the network isn't it, its not like it is determined by one persons usage. In your scenario you would also dump the cost of the bailouts and other government subsidies onto higher users, again not a fair solution to the issue.

 

[Richie]

It's a cost to maintain the network isn't it, its not like it is determined by one persons usage. In your scenario you would also dump the cost of the bailouts and other government subsidies onto higher users, again not a fair solution to the issue.

No I wouldn't... The cost of the bailouts etc should be shared equally. I've never suggested otherwise.

I quite frequently mention how I understand why the Elec SC has went up a larger amount as some of that is being used to cover these costs (I have done so in posts I made today about the SC issue that you have replied to) so please don't use that point as an argument against what I am saying...


To the first part of what you said - yes, it's a cost to maintain the network but is the cost to maintain this fixed irrespective of usage?

You, yourself mentioned you don't know:

Things that are used less often often result in higher maintenance costs although I have no idea if that is the case for the grid.

As I said before - 2 camps involved in this one and neither will agree as it results in one being impacted negatively and it'll just end up in 20 pages of Dowie hole posts

 

[200sols]

As I said before - 2 camps involved in this one and neither will agree as it results in one being impacted negatively and it'll just end up in 20 pages of Dowie hole posts

People are quite capable of discussing things regardless of their personal circumstances, or at least they should be. Its a little disingenuous to keep suggesting I am only arguing in favour of what is best for me.

No I wouldn't... The cost of the bailouts etc should be shared equally. I've never suggested otherwise.

Well they are part of the SC and you think that should be tied into unit costs.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Power Hour?

I think that was what it was called. 1 hr of free electricity per month . no biggie like I said

 

[HungryHippos]

I think that was what it was called. 1 he of free electricity per month . no biggie like I said

Oh dunno guess they were busy enough with all the saving sessions.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

That's just a "tough **** mate, suck it up" argument... not very helpful... (See my very last paragraph about usage)



Again, that is incorrect and I already posted it just earlier today.

In 12 months, my SC went from 14p/day to 77p/ day so £4.34/month to £23.87/month, a 450% increase.... Quite significant.




No the lower mileage user wouldn't. The service intervals on a huge amount of modern cars are 18,000 miles OR 2 years (whichever comes soonest) so someone doing 5,000mpa would service once every 2 years whereas the person doing 18,000 miles would service every year for the same vehicle.

Anyways, it was an example where higher usage users do in fact pay more than lower usage users to counter what you had said:








It's relevant in that, being a higher usage user, your bill would likely increase if SC was put onto units instead.

As a percentage of your annual bill (and using current energy cap prices) you SC accounts for an average of circa 7% of your bill so, to you, it's an insignificant amount...


As I noted earlier - it's split into 2 camps. Lower users have an issue with the SC and higher users don't see what the issue is


I guess what would be really helpful is this - does using the Elec and gas networks more cause an increase in infrastructure maintenance etc? (Kinda like the car servicing example above) or is it a fixed cost irrespective of usage?

Are you 100% certain on that SC? Its basically double what I know anyone else is paying.