Energy Prices (Strictly NO referrals!)

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior · 27 Jul 2023 at 10:43

Richie said:
Why choose just gas when not everyone has Gas. Everyone has elec which is a lot more than £7/month.

For some people with both Gas and Elec, the charges are almost £30/month

I am with Simon on this however.

Really £30 a month for very reliable use as much as you want when you want energy is a bit of a bargain compared to the costs of most things.
Personally I would rather pay that than have a significantly poorer, or not 24/7 service.

Obviously I am only talking of the provision charge here not the unit costs, and by 24/7 service i mean one that has all the capacity we need basically.
Most things in the UK do not have any where near enough capacity for peak demand periods.

darkgen said:
I had a bee in my bonnet earlier in the thread with SC and proposing a quasi-consolidation into UC but conceded that for fairness it needed to remain for households who were net contributors to the grid via solar.

I can see the argument that rural areas could cost more to maintain than urban but then surely the volume density of customers in urban cities centres would subsidise these additional costs for rural. SC should be universal across the entire country, irrespective of location and equalised to maintain that universal cost.

I am somewhat agog at what the SC charge includes these days, whether it be for infrastructure maintenance, previous failed suppliers, green levies, another cheeky contractual protection steal for the producers or simply another blag for tax.

I don't have any issue with standardising SC. For most of the UK its very close anyway.

jpaul · 27 Jul 2023 at 10:43

supplier failure is only 19p/day - still the green tarif that's the big hitter @50p/day in the price cap I thought - and should be moved to taxation

jpaul said:
Hadn't appreciated from centrica boss today that we have a £170p/a green tarif we are now paying in july, which was part of epg help ,
so 50p/day increase, which has offset the reduced energy price, plus 5p day/solr. - if I've got that right ?

Richie · 27 Jul 2023 at 11:09

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
I am with Simon on this however.

Really £30 a month for very reliable use as much as you want when you want energy is a bit of a bargain compared to the costs of most things.
Personally I would rather pay that than have a significantly poorer, or not 24/7 service.

Obviously I am only talking of the provision charge here not the unit costs, and by 24/7 service i mean one that has all the capacity we need basically.
Most things in the UK do not have any where near enough capacity for peak demand periods.

As I say, I am not against SC as a whole (although I belive some costs should be removed from it). I just think it should be the same for the full UK.

Some regions pay circa £21/month (London Gas+Elec) and others are paying circa £29/month (Scotland and N.Wales/Merseyside) so 40% more... for an essential service

If its based on supplying a lower population that is spread out then, surely, averaging it out wont make much difference to the lower SC users given there is so many of them more than the higher payers?

Simon · 27 Jul 2023 at 11:19

Richie said:
As I say, I am not against SC as a whole (although I belive some costs should be removed from it). I just think it should be the same for the full UK.

Some regions pay circa £21/month (London Gas+Elec) and others are paying circa £29/month (Scotland and N.Wales/Merseyside) so 40% more... for an essential service

If its based on supplying a lower population that is spread out then, surely, averaging it out wont make much difference to the lower SC users given there is so many of them more than the higher payers?

Bin collection/council tax also vary by region

mattyfez · 27 Jul 2023 at 11:19

Regardless of where the profit came from, if these companies were non profit/nationalised, that profit could go straight to the cosumer in the form of cheaper bils, or even sidelined to help fix the ticking time bomb that is our water supply system.

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior · 27 Jul 2023 at 11:20

Richie said:
As I say, I am not against SC as a whole (although I belive some costs should be removed from it). I just think it should be the same for the full UK.

Some regions pay circa £21/month (London Gas+Elec) and others are paying circa £29/month (Scotland and N.Wales/Merseyside) so 40% more... for an essential service

If its based on supplying a lower population that is spread out then, surely, averaging it out wont make much difference to the lower SC users given there is so many of them more than the higher payers?

According to google,
Why do standing charges vary by region?
The charge varies from region to region to factor in the complexity of infrastructure needed to get power to your area and local population needs. Standing-charge costs include: Using and maintaining the energy networks, wires and pipes that carry gas and electricity across the country to your home.

Which seems fair.
What would be unfair is if the regions with generation are in effect having to pay for the infrastructure to be able to supply the other regions. This is actually my suspicion.

But its such small fry in the grand scheme of my bills I cannot find any motivation to worry about it personally.

b0rn2sk8 · 27 Jul 2023 at 11:23

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
According to google,
Why do standing charges vary by region?
The charge varies from region to region to factor in the complexity of infrastructure needed to get power to your area and local population needs. Standing-charge costs include: Using and maintaining the energy networks, wires and pipes that carry gas and electricity across the country to your home.

Which seems fair.
What would be unfair is if the regions with generation are in effect having to pay for the infrastructure to be able to supply the other regions. This is actually my suspicion.

But its such small fry in the grand scheme of my bills I cannot find any motivation to worry about it personally.

I think the difference is probably that generation travels down a small number of core high voltage power lines, those are probably relatively cheap for the power that flows through them. They have very few termination points before it’s stopped down to lower voltages for wide distribution.

Where the cost complexity comes is getting the low voltage wires out into say, the Scottish highlands, hence more expensive.

Richie · 27 Jul 2023 at 11:29

Simon said:
Bin collection/council tax also vary by region

A little different though.

Council tax varies per region due to different providers (councils) of the services.

Energy suppliers dont very from one end of the country to the other e.g. EDF are the same provider whether its Edinburgh or Essex

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior · 27 Jul 2023 at 11:31

b0rn2sk8 said:
I think the difference is probably that generation travels down a small number of core high voltage power lines, those are probably relatively cheap for the power that flows through them. They have very few termination points before it’s stopped down to lower voltages for wide distribution.

Where the cost complexity comes is getting the low voltage wires out into say, the Scottish highlands, hence more expensive.

Hmm I think in regards ongoing for sure the costs per GWH (or whatever) will be tiny.
But take investments, the cable linking Scotland to the NE was £3.4Bn budget and the offshore ones from the East also expensive.

But then its possible that the infra costs are being passed on to the other regions indirectly. London pays more per unit that the NE, so its possible a calculation within the unit costs are picking up the distance from generation for example.

Edit actually I misremembered, the £3.4B was for both cables.

Iberdrola gets the green light on the UK's undersea energy 'mega highway'

www.iberdrola.com

Richie · 27 Jul 2023 at 11:35

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
According to google,
Why do standing charges vary by region?
The charge varies from region to region to factor in the complexity of infrastructure needed to get power to your area and local population needs. Standing-charge costs include: Using and maintaining the energy networks, wires and pipes that carry gas and electricity across the country to your home.

Which seems fair.
What would be unfair is if the regions with generation are in effect having to pay for the infrastructure to be able to supply the other regions. This is actually my suspicion.

Looking at Scotland, for instance. This region is considered a Net Exporter of Electricity in that it generates more than it uses overall and the rest is sent outwith this region to other regions who are then paying less in SC.

Is this region paying for the infrastructure to supply these other regions?

Mercenary Keyboard Warrior · 27 Jul 2023 at 11:36

Just dropping this here. I had thought as people keep mentioning it that elec unit prices were the same across the regions, they are not

Energy prices by region - The cost of electricity and gas

Did you know your postcode determines your energy bills? Find out which areas in the UK are the cheapest and the most expensive in terms of energy pricing.

www.uswitch.com

Gas Sc is the only one that is the same across all. Both elec Sc and unit prices are different.

Simon · 27 Jul 2023 at 11:55

Richie said:
A little different though.

Council tax varies per region due to different providers (councils) of the services.

Energy suppliers dont very from one end of the country to the other e.g. EDF are the same provider whether its Edinburgh or Essex

But the infrastructure differs

Richie · 27 Jul 2023 at 11:56

Simon said:
But the infrastructure differs

Care to elaborate?

b0rn2sk8 · 27 Jul 2023 at 12:00

Richie said:
Looking at Scotland, for instance. This region is considered a Net Exporter of Electricity in that it generates more than it uses overall and the rest is sent outwith this region to other regions who are then paying less in SC.

Is this region paying for the infrastructure to supply these other regions?

Probably not, as I said in my post.

There are different levels of the grid and power generation is also most exclusively connected to the top level of the grid which comprises of a handful of long distance links which trail across the entire country. They then connect in via sub stations to lower grid levels which is distributed to consumers.

Also think about the geography of Scotland, all the islands with their sub sea cables etc. and the costs of getting power to rural communities in the highlands.

Richie · 27 Jul 2023 at 12:19

I'm not contesting that it practically costs more to send electricity and gas to some homes than others but, on the point you make above:

1. Why does Northern Scotland (which has, I'd argue, a more spread out population with more islands to cater for) pay a lower SC than Southern Scotland
2. If it does cost more to provide infrastructure for these services, why is this not also reflected in the Gas SC. The Gas SC is the same throughout the UK according to the link posted a few posts up.

b0rn2sk8 · 27 Jul 2023 at 12:27

No idea, I was noting down my thoughts and opinions of what it could be and it made sense in my mind but I don’t have any evidence to back them up.

They could for instance be factoring in the economic differences between northern and southern Scotland, E.g. people who live in Edinburgh may have more money than those up in Inverness.

The only way to find out is to ask OFGEM or the relevant government department.

Simon · 27 Jul 2023 at 12:36

Simon said:
But the infrastructure differs

Amount of copper and pipe to maintain vs number of houses

McBain · 27 Jul 2023 at 12:46

BG making record profits, price cap is a scam as is Ofgem. We are being robbed blind.

TheVoice · 27 Jul 2023 at 12:56

Richie said:
A little different though.

Council tax varies per region due to different providers (councils) of the services.

Energy suppliers dont very from one end of the country to the other e.g. EDF are the same provider whether its Edinburgh or Essex

Suppliers might not differ by geography but the distribution network operators does:

Distribution network operator - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Richie · 27 Jul 2023 at 13:02

Simon said:
Amount of copper and pipe to maintain vs number of houses

What about my points below I posted (pipe regarding Gas I assume you mean?):

Richie said:
1. Why does Northern Scotland (which has, I'd argue, a more spread out population with more islands to cater for) pay a lower SC than Southern Scotland
2. If it does cost more to provide infrastructure for these services, why is this not also reflected in the Gas SC. The Gas SC is the same throughout the UK according to the link posted a few posts up.

TheVoice said:
Suppliers might not differ by geography but the distribution network operators does:

Distribution network operator - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thats a fair point - so I wonder how much of the SC is passed from the supplier to the DNO.