Energy Supplier can't install an EV Charger

[Firegod]

Fun and games contine with this sadly. Been waiting a month now. Last 2 weeks have been Smart Home Charge chasing various engineers for me, to get them out to fit the kit. None have contacted me. Sounds like they must sub-contract out to local engineers. Smart Home Charge have apologised and yesterday I told them to cancel it and give me a refund. DPD picked up the kit today, so hopefully will get a refund once that is back with them. Reached out to Ovo in the meantime for a second time, saying as the shed isn't being used for the charger (just putting it on side of house). They're now being funny about earths. Asked for picture of the earthing rod for the mains. I told them it is under where the kitchen is, they can happily come and pay me to dig it up for proof. Then the same on the water mains. Sadly, behind built in kitchen units. You can just make out the green/yellow earth cable through a small hole. Hopefully my word is good enough. That's the best I can send them. And then the gas meter. It has no earth. It has a yellow warning card inside. Why do they need to know if the gas meter has an earth bonding for an EV Charger install? Anyway, I'm not holding out much hope that they'll do it either. Pretty sick at this point about getting an EV to be honest. If Ovo do say no, I'll get the bloke who sorted out the shed issue as he said he fits them all the time. Probably be cheaper as well!

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Sounds like fun and games.

They shouldn’t touch the install if bonding isn’t in place or should be rectified as part of the install. I don’t think it’s an EV charger thing, it’s a general regs thing. In theory that should be the case for anyone who touches the installation.

Is your incoming water pipe plastic? If so, no bonding is required but the gas will be metal and therefore must be bonded.

Presumably they are asking because the earth arrangement at your house requires an earth rod? But more importantly, why is your earth rod under your kitchen floor?

It should have been moved if an extension was put on, it’s not like they are expensive either. I’d expect that would also be classed as a fault also if it can’t be seen or tested so it will be assumed it isn’t there.

Both those two issues are likely to result in a failed EICR if you were to have one.

That combined with the proper dodgy cable going to the shed, whoever worked on that property before was ‘not great’.

Do you have the certificates from when it was put in?

 

[jpaul]

how come you went for 'smart home charge' at all ? versus asking your 'shed bloke' to continue the work or returning to OVO after shed guy had qualified shed.

 

[Firegod]

Sounds like fun and games.

They shouldn’t touch the install if bonding isn’t in place or should be rectified as part of the install. I don’t think it’s an EV charger thing, it’s a general regs thing. In theory that should be the case for anyone who touches the installation.

Is your incoming water pipe plastic? If so, no bonding is required but the gas will be metal and therefore must be bonded.

Presumably they are asking because the earth arrangement at your house requires an earth rod? But more importantly, why is your earth rod under your kitchen floor?

It should have been moved if an extension was put on, it’s not like they are expensive either. I’d expect that would also be classed as a fault also if it can’t be seen or tested so it will be assumed it isn’t there.

Both those two issues are likely to result in a failed EICR if you were to have one.

That combined with the proper dodgy cable going to the shed, whoever worked on that property before was ‘not great’.

Do you have the certificates from when it was put in?

Yep super happy fun time! Yeah water pipe is plastic, which I've also told them. So if the gas needs bonded, I'm assuming just another ear rod?

Yeah they said "as I appear to have a TT mains supply". No idea what that means.

Hah that'll be the "electrician" that put it there many many many years ago now when the whole place was being revamped. I don't have any certs but my parents might have some (somewhere!).

how come you went for 'smart home charge' at all ? versus asking your 'shed bloke' to continue the work or returning to OVO after shed guy had qualified shed.

So yeah, I have gone back to Ovo now, since sorting the shed fiasco. Smart Home Charge yeah - cancelled them. To be fair, thinking on it some more, Ovo should (if they do want to go ahead) send a quote for the work, as the next step. I'll wait and see what that is, then I'll get the sparky back out regardless and get him to give me a price. Just having someone here to point at stuff and explain I prefer. Having to do the submission process for Ovo via the app with just pics that you can't really explain is not ideal. Rather do face to face.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Yep super happy fun time! Yeah water pipe is plastic, which I've also told them. So if the gas needs bonded, I'm assuming just another ear rod?

It needs to be connected to the same earthing arrangement as your house otherwise there can be a ’potential difference’ between the two. The whole point of the bonding is to make sure there is no potential difference.

Yeah they said "as I appear to have a TT mains supply". No idea what that means.

You can either have a combined neutral and earth (which uses a giant earth rod upstream) or not, I guess you are in the not camp which means you need your own.

Hah that'll be the "electrician" that put it there many many many years ago now when the whole place was being revamped. I don't have any certs but my parents might have some (somewhere!).

Dodgy is all I’ll call it, you may need to bite the bullet and put in another earth rod or this issue is just going to keep coming up every time you get work done.

A big box shifter like Ovo will insist on everything being to standard because they have a lot to lose.

I’d highly recommend moving to Octopus though, their EV tariff is cheaper than Ovo because all your electric is at 7p between 23:30 and 05:30 (and when octopus decide to charge your car outside of this time) and not just the electric going into your car.

 

[Adam_151]

Personally I'd be tempted to ask your DNO (If you are in newcastle, it'll be Northern Power Grid as they look after what was formally the North Eastern Electricity board area as well as the yorkshire electricty board area). for a PME / TN-C-S earth terminal, your supply looks like a resonably modern straight concentric comming from underground, so I'd be supprised if the local network wasn't upto the requirements to provide it.

TN-C-S used to be a little problematic with EVSE units due to the special requirements in the regs, but just about all the manufacturers have got upto speed and include a PEN fault device in the units, so its not much of an issue with modern units.

That way you can forget about that earth rod in the dry ground underneath your kitchen floor.

Its also just occured to me that when that garage SWA was stuck in the main switch, you'd had no effective fault protection and if it had been damaged you could have had strange potentionals between things like taps and concrete floors, Un-cleared faults to TT earths can be a bit on the nasty side, and I've even seen one cause issues in neighbouring properties, which also confused the hell out of the NPG guys

 

[b0rn2sk8]

@Adam_151, the key characteristic of Identifying a TT system (which needs it's own earth rod) is there isn't an earth terminal on the supply. Per the photo's on post #7, there is no earth terminal visible on the main supply so there must be an earth rod somewhere else.

They will need to verify its there and test it is working as part of the tests to install the charger, the gas bonding also needs to be addressed if it cant be found.

OVO wouldn't have contacted the DNO, they are almost certainly on the in the survey phase before DNO notification.

@Firegod I wouldn't bother contacting your DNO. Are you sure the gas isn't bonded somewhere else that isn't in the outdoor gas box?

For context, a PEN fault protection is to protect you if the supplier earth upstream drops out due to a supplier fault, you only need it if your installation relies upon the suppliers earth protection. There are 3 ways to deal with this, the charger having the protective device built in, an earth rod or a standalone PEN fault detection device. If you need your own earth rod its also elementary as the regulation doesn't apply.

Almost all chargers on the UK market have the the protection built in anyway, it's probably only the Tesla charger that doesn't have it these days, its made primarily for the US market where is not a requirement.

 

[jpaul]

TN-C-S used to be a little problematic with EVSE units due to the special requirements in the regs, but just about all the manufacturers have got upto speed and include a PEN fault device in the units, so its not much of an issue with modern units.

so, are the range of chargers being installed by OVO out of date, or they are unduly cautious - if they are giving him the 7th degree on earth rod presence ....
& should just find a better charger and another installer - like zappi ? seems to have a good reputation in exceeding BS pen detection capabilities.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

so, are the range of chargers being installed by OVO out of date, or they are unduly cautious - if they are giving him the 7th degree on earth rod presence ....
& should just find a better charger and another installer - like zappi ? seems to have a good reputation in exceeding BS pen detection capabilities.

No. See my post directly above yours, if you’d have read it before posting, it would have addressed your statement / question / not a question.

They a TT earthing system which requires an earth rod at their property.

Ovo have done nothing wrong, an earth rod is a requirement due to earthing arrangements at the property.

The chargers they fit are the same as everyone else fits. They all meet the requirements for PEN fault detection. Incidentally, they are some of the most popular chargers installed in the U.K.

You don’t even need PEN fault detection if you have your own earth rod.

 

[Firegod]

Ovo won't fit the charger without a picture of the earthing rod. Thankfully when the property was being revamped we took lots of photos. Dusted off the album and there is one picture just about showing the earths leading into the rod in the ground! I've scanned it off to them. Fingers crossed that is good enough to apease them.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

SOunds likes you have rodded through the issue now.

 

[Firegod]

Are you sure the gas isn't bonded somewhere else that isn't in the outdoor gas box?

Not that i can see or am aware of. The lady that upgraded all the meters for us recently (we're now all smart metered up) left a yellow note card in the gas meter box. I'm guessing she couldn't see any evidence of one either. I'm assuming it would be easy to tell - an earth cable leading in/out of the box.

 

[Firegod]

A big box shifter like Ovo

I had to read that twice.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Ovo won't fit the charger without a picture of the earthing rod. Thankfully when the property was being revamped we took lots of photos. Dusted off the album and there is one picture just about showing the earths leading into the rod in the ground! I've scanned it off to them. Fingers crossed that is good enough to apease them.

I mean, if push comes to shove, this really shouldn’t be expensive to fix.

An earth rod itself is only about £10, you might need a few but it’s not an expensive or time consuming job. You just need somewhere sensible to put it where you can get a cable back to the rest of the installation. It will need to be tested though so it’s a job for an electrician.

The gas bonding is an easy fix, you could DIY this easily, you just need to make sure you use the correct sized cable. No need to test/sign off.

Get the guy back who fixed the other issue to do the whole job if Ovo won’t do it.

Plus switch to Octopus!!!

 

[Firegod]

I mean, if push comes to shove, this really shouldn’t be expensive to fix.

An earth rod itself is only about £10, you might need a few but it’s not an expensive or time consuming job. You just need somewhere sensible to put it where you can get a cable back to the rest of the installation. It will need to be tested though so it’s a job for an electrician.

The gas bonding is an easy fix, you could DIY this easily, you just need to make sure you use the correct sized cable. No need to test/sign off.

Get the guy back who fixed the other issue to do the whole job if Ovo won’t do it.

Plus switch to Octopus!!!

Thanks mate - understood. And yep, my thoughts exactly. I'll await Ovo's reply and if not get onto sparky to come sort.

 

[jpaul]

[

The chargers they fit are the same as everyone else fits. They all meet the requirements for PEN fault detection. Incidentally, they are some of the most popular chargers installed in the U.K.

presentation by zappi which describes how they have PEN protection beyond the basic BS standard - all other things being equal, they've sold it to me.
basically it would detect&trigger on leakage of current from a car body through human, resulting from PEN fault,that BS standard doesn't demand https://youtu.be/p562IZ1nOSM?t=926
( e: all a question of risk as the guy says, but if you had any suspicions on the stake in the ground ... )
]

 

[Jonnycoupe]

How was it 'sold to you' when you havent put your money where your (quite extensive) mouth is yet?

 

[Adam_151]

so, are the range of chargers being installed by OVO out of date, or they are unduly cautious - if they are giving him the 7th degree on earth rod presence ....
& should just find a better charger and another installer - like zappi ? seems to have a good reputation in exceeding BS pen detection capabilities.

The problem is not related to any issue with TNCS and PEN fault protection, but rather he has a TT installation which relies on an earth rod, and its not accessible for inspection and its not in a suitable place, They need to be outside, in pits not under floors, being in permantly dry ground will not result in good conductivity with the mass of the earth.

My general go to now that generally in most cases the issues with EVSEs and TNCS have been solved, is to recommend a TNCS earthing terminal is requested (AFAIK, the DNO have to provide one if the network is suitable, but they can charge for doing so), My opinion is that I'd rather have a low impedance earth that can clear overcurrent devices in an earth fault situation rather than rely on an RCD to do it. TNCS does have some disadvantages and others opinions may vary, but I've seen what happens when earth faults don't clear on TT because either the RCD failed, or there was a way for a fault to occur upstream of the RCD*

*I'm personally not convinced that most EVSEs installers when installing a small additional board on a TT installation will follow the recommended guidence of using a tails gland, leaving the outer sheathing on right almost upto the RCD terminals and using a tails clamp above the terminals