England's young people near bottom of global league table for basic skills

[Dolph]

What other system would you use? I am genuinely interested.

You already have a number of formal tests that are completed, so you can use those for one aspect. (Gives a good absolute standardised score)

Pupils of all ages complete work of various types, randomly selecting batches for blind assessment (on both pupil and teacher, ideally independent) to provide additonal performance trend information across a number of metrics. (This allows for improvement scoring against a baseline)

Add in two levels of client survey (pupil and parent) for another metric. (Tests satisfaction of both pupils and staff)

Add in some information around problem and complaint handling and follow through. (Provides balance and prevents manipulation of the above, as well as looking at care for learning environment)

Quantify the metrics then balance to give an overall performance score for the teacher (and don't expect perfection) and you have a good balanced setup focused on results and improvements. I would also suggest using such a setup to drive bonuses rather than pay rises if you want to drive consistently high standards.

 

[Dolph]

I'm not sure if there really is enough inefficiency to cut costs *and* turn a profit at the same time? Assuming no increased funding.

Interesting if true about the cost per pupil. I assume that is the cost to the parent/client, rather than the school's own incurred costs?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/educatio...ucate-a-child-privately-say-headteachers.html
Was the link from 2008.

More recent data shows similar costs for state education, but I can't find a more recent private school figure for comparison.

The costs are the per pupil averages, whether from parent or the taxpayer.

 

[RDM]

I'm not sure if there really is enough inefficiency to cut costs *and* turn a profit at the same time? Assuming no increased funding.

Considering how poorly most schools seem to be run I wouldn't be too sure about that!

 

[Ryan-3]

They pushing 27 class sizes in North East .... education system is broke 100% up this way... it's only a matter of time.

Like I said in my earlier post, it's really ****** and only a matter of time.

 

[elmarko]

Elmarko - the scientific method itself is never an unethical approach. It's application to unethically achieved goals may be - but the method itself is not.

Of course, that's pretty much what I said a couple of posts back.

The method determines what works, our ethical considerations will then determine our application or the validity/practicality of the method.

Moreover, whilst it would seem that evidence based policy would be the best idea that again runs the peril of an overly reductionist approach where you have to assume that the problems you are examining are being isolated satisfactorily and that you can account for relationships with other things sufficiently to exclude them. However that is clearly not the case with education where social welfare, health, financial considerations, etc will all play a key. It assumes transferability of results.

When I expressed a desire to use the scientific method to determine methods of improving our education system I didn't advocate reductionism or simply a poor use of the method.

I fully agree that the solutions are based within a huge range of different fields & when using the method to determine the underline causes of lack of engagement in education the solutions to these problems will fall into a myriad of government departments jurisdiction.

The education system alone will not be able to make up for failings across our entire culture.

 

[elmarko]

Quantify the metrics then balance to give an overall performance score for the teacher (and don't expect perfection) and you have a good balanced setup focused on results and improvements. I would also suggest using such a setup to drive bonuses rather than pay rises if you want to drive consistently high standards.

Really?, do you have a single study which shows that bonus related pay incentives improve performance for jobs which require at least basic cognitive function or conceptualisation?.

All of the studies I've read say the complete opposite.

 

[Xordium]

You already have a number of formal tests that are completed, so you can use those for one aspect. (Gives a good absolute standardised score)

But you've already indicated you believe these tests to not be fit for purpose. But you then want to tie another consequence to their inaccuracy?

Pupils of all ages complete work of various types, randomly selecting batches for blind assessment (on both pupil and teacher, ideally independent) to provide additonal performance trend information across a number of metrics. (This allows for improvement scoring against a baseline)

But then are you not adding a great unnecessary workload both on kids, their teachers and moreover adding in another layer of management. Isn't this part of the problem we have across all sectors that people are that busy measuring the indicators of quality that we don't actually have the time or the bodies to actually add quality?

Add in two levels of client survey (pupil and parent) for another metric. (Tests satisfaction of both pupils and staff)

And a 5 year old would be objective on this? And if it happened in my lads class the poor teacher would get super low scores because she is unfortunate enough to be in the position where she has to challenge half the parents for not assisting at all and then ducking the sharp pointy elbows from the other half.

Add in some information around problem and complaint handling and follow through. (Provides balance and prevents manipulation of the above, as well as looking at care for learning environment)

But to what satisfaction as above - what parents and children may consider a good outcome is not necessarily the right outcome.


I do agree with what you are saying broadly but I do think the biggest change has to be in teacher to pupil ratios. I've spent quite a bit of time observing and it is blatantly obvious that not all kids are getting the attention they require and then are causing problems and the poor teachers are spending more time firefighting than teaching and whilst putting out one lot of fires the next lot are starting. I am not sure performance related pay can be made to work or would offer any benefit.

I would also add I think there needs to be a good look at what levels of protection can be instigated to facilitate men entering the profession. I don't think it is healthy for young boys to have such female centred workforce. This is more pronounced if they have no positive male role model at home. I know the biggest influence on my life was from the timely intervention of a male supply teacher when I was 7 - he recognised me as a child who was unchallenged not the antichrist the rest thought I was. Wish I had the opportunity to thank the bloke.

 

[Irish_Tom]

Intelligent selection - teaching unions oppose formal selection (eg a modern 11 plus or two tier exams).

Teaching unions oppose a two tier system because it's proven to benefit only the top minority and fail the majority.

Society has also changed – you can't leave school without any GCEs and 'go down the pit' or into a steel mill.

That's not to say I disagree with intelligent selection. However, the best form of intelligent selection is 'setting' students based on their ability within each individual subject with the option of moving them up and down through the sets depending on how they develop over the course of their school life.

More parental involvement - Tends to get objections when the parents start challenging teachers.

As Xordium says, I have never seen or heard any evidence to support this. I think most teachers would welcome more parent involvement.

Successful schools growing - They don't like the other side, failing schools being closed.

Partly because there's already a strain on school places around the country and the government ceased the spending on building new schools when they came into power.

It's also partly because it's easier, cheaper and better for the children in the long run to try and improve failing schools rather than close them down entirely.

However, there are already systems in place for outstanding schools to mentor failing schools and (while I disagree with it) failing schools are now being 'persuaded' to become sponsored academies.

Personally I think replacing the management of a failing school rather than closing the school all together makes a lot more sense.

Reforming pay structure - the current strikes are around the idea that better teachers should be paid more, as opposed to length of service or other factors dictating pay.

The current strikes aren't purely down to performance related pay.

In fact, the unions have agreed an outline framework for PRP and most of the teachers I know are in favour of some form of PRP.

It's just that Gove is so hell-bent on enforcing his 'vision' without negotiation that there's no chance to even reach a compromise.

Rigour in the exam system - They have opposed every recent change to improve standards or make grades more meaningful.

You mean like changing grade boundaries half way through the school year? That really made the grades more meaningful.

Once again, I doubt there are any teachers that want to see a deterioration of standards and actually I'd challenge the assumption to a degree.

The latest Ofsted Annual Report concluded that while there is still progress to be made, teaching standards across the country are improving.

The reason unions are opposing the changes Gove is trying to implement is because firstly, they aren't substantiated in any evidence to suggest they will actually improve anything and secondly, he's trying to rush through reform at every level of the education system without considering the consequences of how those changes will impact on each other.

I think unions would be in favour of reform if it looked like progress that would actually benefit the students. The issue is that most, if not all, of Gove's changes are a retrograde step based on his own ideology and his experience of school in the 50s.

==

As Xordium says, most of your criticisms of the current system are hard to dispute but your solutions seem to be based on ideology and rhetoric rather than taking into account approaches and solutions that are either already being implemented or that are supported by teaching professionals.

Your obvious distain for teachers doesn't help your argument and for someone who is usually so adamant on sources and evidence, you don't appear to actually know much about the education system.

Are you Michael Gove?

 

[Mr Jack]

This goes to back up the point that some of us have been making for a while. Education in thid [sic] country is failing young people and has been getting steadily worse for the lst [sic] 15 years.

The real damage was done well before 15 years ago. A significant part of the problem has been that so much of the money that Labour invested in education got soaked up dealing with the systematic underfunding of the previous administration. Even so: teaching to the test, the fake rise in GCSE and A-Levels, the constant tampering, Academies, the continuation of League Tables, and so on were failed policy. Where Labour needed to reverse bad policy from the Thatcher/Major years they instead took them onwards.

Labour's early intervention work would likely have yielded results in the long term, it's a pity the ConDems have hit it so very hard.

Will the opponents of change and the vested interests in the teaching profession finally have a reality check now I wonder...

"Something must be done! This is Something! We must do This!"

Just because there are problems with the system does not mean the approaches advocated by the likes of Gove are a good idea. There are few, if any, who oppose change in the education system what is opposed is change for the worse.

 

[pitchfork]

It does suck how we don't have the same opportunities as our parents but we are all responsible for our own fate. If we can't change the system then we have to play the system.

Oh I agree we need to play the system, but could you identify with that when you were 16?

As a nation we are going downhill because we get the American stuff over here and people eat it up, it's just consume consume consume, the community spirit is going, the sense of pride is going.
And that is destroying the freedom in the markets and the prospects of future generations.

Who needs it when you can have a mcdonalds and a starbucks while playing on facebook on your ipad about the pop factor?

I've always been a grafter, work hard and do your bit, but really, there aren't many jobs that actually value that any more. That wouldn't sell you down the river in a heartbeat.

"You know nowadays, it's the old man who's got all the money, and a young man aint got nothing in the world these days" - Mose Allison

 

[cHk4]

u wot m8

PLS M8

 

[krooton]

I've said it before, and will say it again:

If your education system allows students to progress to the next year, even though they failed the previous, obviously you will end up with people leaving school lacking basic skills.

In SA when I was in school, if you failed the year, you repeated it. Fail it again, and you would get assess for learning difficulties.

This ensured that people didn't do the next year's more difficult curriculum without first proving they understood the last one. It also acted as motivation for some slackers, as being kept back a year was pretty embarrassing, so at least some attempt was made to scrape by.

 

[oulton]

I blame the government, parents, the media +big business, and the children in descending order of blame.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

I think our education system is pretty flawed in many key respect.

For a start, how is it possible you can take exams at say 12, get awful scores, but progress into the next year of school? If you've not had the right learning outcomes at level 1, how the hell are you going to manage at level 2, 3 and 4?

Also, we hold back the best and brightest by putting them into a school with less able people. I was so bored by the slow pace of education in my school that I totally lost interest, so I can only imagine the super smart kids are off slitting their wrists in boredom.

We've also failed to give our teachers the authority they deserve, Schools should be given absolute authority during school time; instead we have parents interfering left, right and centre. That whole thread about water that was on here a few months back was a real eye-opener for me. Parents are more interested in making their children happy than raising them properly.

Our society has a sickness where we celebrate to stupid, idle, lazy, unskilled and useless. The whole "celebrity" culture and this culture of having to bend over backwards to satisfying minorities/disables and so forth is all part of that.

Basically, we're in the last days of Rome where all vitality has evaporated from our civilizations and we have now become a sick and diseased animal, just waiting for a Lion to come put us down.

 

[kitch9]

We have 2 national organisations who have followers who have great pride in our country - EDL and BNP. Looking at their members I don't think national pride adds any intelligence

This post doesn't really add anything to our countries intelligence levels.

 

[krooton]

This post doesn't really add anything to our countries intelligence levels.

Lukewarmest. Burn. Ever.

 

[pitchfork]

I blame the government, parents, the media +big business, and the children in descending order of blame.

Lovely little summary.

You know what I blame this on? Society.

 

[ChroniC]

This is just a knock on affect of poor parenting and lack of discipline. Not the schools fault, you can't teach someone who doesn't listen.

 

[LateX'Dog]

My wife teaches Psychology and Statistics at a University ranging from 1st year degree to 2nd year PhD.

As she tells me, experiencing the level of stupidity she encounters on a daily basis from that range of students for the last 3 years is one of the sole driving forces behind us leaving the UK.

The stories she comes home and tells me is pretty shocking and goes completely against what the general public think in relation to the education they feel there kids are getting.

If you train a kid to pass exams, they'll master passing exams, but lack knowledge. And this is exactly the system the UK runs.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

My wife teaches Psychology and Statistics at a University ranging from 1st year degree to 2nd year PhD.

As she tells me, experiencing the level of stupidity she encounters on a daily basis from that range of students for the last 3 years is one of the sole driving forces behind us leaving the UK.

The stories she comes home and tells me is pretty shocking and goes completely against what the general public think in relation to the education they feel there kids are getting.

If you train a kid to pass exams, they'll master passing exams, but lack knowledge. And this is exactly the system the UK runs.

Let me say, older people are really no better. The amount of times I've been stunned by the sheer stupidity of people of ALL ages is shocking. But it really isn't any better elsewhere; stupidity is endemic to humaniy.