Poll: Erik ten Hag Sack Watch & Next Manchester United Manager? Sacked. Ruben Amorim appointed.

To sack or not to sack


  • Total voters
    129
Oh look, we did need this thread after all. Who would have thought…

It appears there has been a fairly limited brief to the Man Utd journos that he’ll remain in charge for the next 2 games, but it sounds a bit weak.

Ultimately INEOS made a complete mess of their first big decision since joining the club. It was obvious to almost everyone that Ten Hag wasn’t a good fit, and the new owners obviously agreed, leaving Ten Hag in the dark and openly searching for a new manager to replace him. They’ve come in and aggressively rung the changes at all levels of the club, yet this was a disastrous oversight; the manager is the most important figure, and they should have got a new one. Their one defence is that it was early days and the new directors and executives weren’t officially in place - something Berrada and Ashworth both mentioned recently.

For people to ignore an entire seasons worth of games and want to keep him for an FA Cup win was madness, a competition where we were quite literally millimetres away from being knocked out by a lower league side at Wembley.

I don’t think Ten Hag has ever come across particularly well. His communication style is very unclear and strange - compare this to his compatriot, Arne Slot, who is much more relaxed and clear when he speaks. He doesn’t seem to know what his tactics are, and nor does anyone else. The players don’t seem to like him. He’s looked consistently out of his depth.

Of course, as usual, the players are to blame too. Many do not apply themselves well enough, they are mentally fragile. There is some quality within the squad though, we’ve seen before how a mental shift can make all the difference, even with a lesser manager like Solskjaer.

Tuchel is the simple answer. He’s an elite manager who is available and would join although they weren’t able to find an agreement in the summer. However, he seems a bit of a difficult character too and isn’t exactly known for expansive football. Others, like Amorim, would be great, but that would likely need to be in the summer. I like Thomas Frank too, obviously his top level experience is limited, but he seems to have a big personality and his teams play very much on the front foot, even against the best teams.
 
As I've said before what's the belief/logic in INEOS being able to turn things around? There is no guarantee. They will make mistakes, let's just hope they don't make too many. They've also sanctioned the new hires who don't look all that great either. Early days yet of course but it could be a long decade ahead.

It's easy to change manager, not so easy to change the squad.

I don’t know what they’ll be like, but they have appointed some good people and are unlikely to be worse than the Glazers (who are unfortunately still there, let’s not forget).

I’m not going to judge them yet, but they’ve initially botched the call on the manager and are paying the price now.
 
I'm not sure you can really substantiate that. He was rated as one of the best up and coming coaches in Europe and had a reputation for attacking football. The fact that he hasn't been able to implement that is his responsibility but not necessarily all his fault. Most of us seasoned supporters know there has been a degree of dressing room toxicity, player power and no strategic direction from. Ineos appraised his performance, looked at alternatives and made a decision. For all we know they interviewed Tuchel and didn't think they could work with him in the way they want to work with a coach. You also can't completely devalue the two trophies.

I should perhaps have been clearer - I was talking in terms of the summer review. I thought hiring him initially was a good call, but we don't really know what a manager is made of until he's thrown into the maelstrom that is Man Utd, and unfortunately he seems to have struggled in every area. Doesn't mean he's a rubbish manager, he may go elsewhere and do pretty well.

Reading between the lines and what the press have been told, if he doesn't beat both Porto and Villa then he'll likely be gone. We're in that situation now where things are seriously bleak, in recent years, has a manager ever turned this sort of situation around at a club of this size? It feels like curtains to me.

Interestingly a lot of people thought Graham Potter on MNF was almost interviewing for the Man Utd job. He struggled at Chelsea which does have some parallels with Man Utd, so that would be a concern - but he was highly rated before that.
 
I think that is being rather harsh when they made the decision. They knew there was something fundamentally wrong within the club because the same thing has happened time and time again with different managers, some of which had very good reputations. Along with the injuries, Ineos wanted to give ETH a fair crack of the whip

They put the structure in place, they bought in players that can play the way ETH wants so that there is no excuse. Unfortunately, despite some signs of improvement, it’s still isn’t working so he will have to go but there is something still fundamentally wrong with the team. How can not one player show up and play against Tottenham beggars belief. Even steady and reliable players like Dalot were utter gash

Hence why I'm not judging them yet, but I don't think it's that harsh. Whether they were officially in post or not, they will have no doubt watched our games last season. They will have seen how utterly awful it was. Yes, injuries offered some mitigation, but not that much. Sadly, I fear fan sentiment swung their decision, wrongly, and worryingly. A wave of wild delusion swept over the fanbase and it went from 70% wanting him out, to 70% wanting him in. It was like Ten Hag had flashed the Men in Black Neuralyzer. The FA Cup final performance was great, but it was very much a one-off. A bit like how Coventry were a whisker away from beating us in the semi final - it's a cup, these things happen.

I hear this argument that we've tried lots of experienced managers and they didn't work out, but let's think about it for a moment?

David Moyes - was never realistically going to be a good fit, and directly following SAF made everything 10x worse.

Van Gaal - a good manager but very much at the end of his career.

Mourinho - more or less as above, his best days were behind him.

Solskjaer - nice guy, very limited manager. Did about as well as you'd expect.

Ten Hag is the first appointment of a more up and coming manager with a promising reputation for attacking football, and it was a logical appointment. Unfortunately for us, it hasn't worked out and despite spending a fortune and setting him up with his own team, there has been zero progress. We are no better than the day he took over. Of course there are other factors, but he has completely failed to get his tactical style over to the players. He can't motivate them and I don't think they particularly like him. This is a huge problem that cannot be resolved.

OK, they're giving him Porto and Villa, do managers with two games to save their job ever last much longer? Even if we won both of these, we'll be back here again in a few weeks, probably still languishing in mid-table. Time's up.
 
The issue with sacking him is that you've just spent another boat load of cash getting the players he wanted in, whose to say if the next manager would want the likes of Ugarte/de Light/Zirkzee etc etc and you'll be back to square one except you are already pretty close to not being able to spend 200 mill plus each year. better to let him continue and get the best out of the players he wanted :D

This was another questionable decision from INEOS. ETH’s signings have generally not worked out, so why just go straight for more of his favourites… I think they were trying to back him, after openly trying to replace him. The second the board look like they’ve lost confidence in the manager, he’s done. They really did make a bit of a mess of things and that isn’t ETH’s fault.
 
That team vs Spurs (and in most games this season) was mainly players ETH wanted and knows. It wasn’t just Rashford and the usual suspects. None of them have a clue what to do as he can’t coach properly. People keep referencing his Ajax team from many years ago, like it’s some kind of revelation, probably based on some YouTube highlights. It’s not relevant now.

It’s like some people support Ten Hag and not the club. Why? Whats he done to earn any sort of loyalty? Delivered two second rate trophies. I agree there are many other issues and uncertainties, but having a hopeless manager isn’t going to make things any easier.

P.S. Sancho is at Chelsea on loan with an obligation to buy - he’s not coming back.
 
I'm not sure what the club owners/management have done in recent times to earn any support/loyalty either. Nor the players, it seems like most of them can't be arsed.

And who is happy with them? Pretty much nobody. All you can say in fairness is that INEOS have only been here a few months and that isn’t long. They absolutely made a mess of the ETH situation at the end of the season but hopefully that isn’t a sign of things to come.
 
I can't imagine they are going to keep him. They will either appoint a caretaker very soon or be looking to replace him in January regardless. Hes simply got to perform an absolutely unheard of miracle to actually justify keeping his job.

The writing is on the wall isn't it - has a manager ever turned around this sort of situation? Even if we beat Villa it will just prolong the inevitable. It was like in Ole's final games when he managed to beat Spurs 3-0, but we knew it was a one off.

I find it slightly perplexing that INEOS have briefed they are taking a long term view of things, yet they basically judged the entirety of last season on the FA Cup final alone... :o

In all seriousness though, Ratcliffe seems a ruthless, fiery character, and he already underlined the importance of being in the Champions League. I can't see this going on much longer.

Also, not wanting to pile in on ETH, but his interviews are just so tragic aren't they? The one he gave to Sky for the weekend, and TNT yesterday: "We stick to the plan, we're in a process" and that's about all you get. Not even a small amount of detail, no inspiring words, nothing.
 
Not sure if people have seen this.


I think logically it will be his decision (with Glazer agreement) but they'll be guided on it by Ashworth & co. Not really much he can say, but a few interesting points -

Asked if he still had faith in former Ajax boss Ten Hag, Ratcliffe told BBC Sport: "I don’t want to answer that question."

"But that team that's running Manchester United has only been together since June or July. They weren't there in January, February, March or April – [CEO] Omar [Berrada], [sporting director] Dan Ashworth - they only arrived in July.
Ashworth and Berrada both commented a few weeks ago that they weren't officially in post when the decision to keep Ten Hag was made, I think that's deliberate framing on their part.

Also -

United’s executive committee have a long-standing meeting in the diary for Tuesday, which will bring together part-owner Sir Jim Ratcliffe and Sir Dave Brailsford, as well as recent appointees including chief executive Omar Berrada, sporting director Dan Ashworth and technical director Jason Wilcox. United co-chairman Joel Glazer is also flying in from the United States to attend. There is scheduled to be a Manchester stop for meetings, too.



Somewhat speculative, but you'd expect the current form will be a topic of discussion... ultimately are they prepared to finish in the bottom half the table as things stand? That would be disastrous.
 
I think you could make an argument for Southgate as interim manager until the end of the season. The England job has some similarities in terms of pressure and other problems. However, as a long term appointment it would be potentially horrifying. It's only early in the season so they'd be better off going for a proper appointment, if a manager was available. Ultimately they need to decide how they want the team to play, and look at the sort of players we have, and find a manager who suits...
 
Some reports are emerging that RvN will get it when they sack ETH.


I think they'll have another chat with Tuchel and see if something can be worked out. There's talent in the squad and he's a top manager who is available. I am well aware of his issues, but it's literally impossible for him to be any worse.
 
So 2 glorious draws and ten hag is staying? /chefs kiss

This is another one of those familiar situations where everyone can see there's no way back for the manager, but the ownership are failing to act.

They may have a meeting and decide to sack him tomorrow/Tuesday, but that doesn't seem particularly likely. The longer he stays, the worse this all looks, it's very much Woodward/Glazers territory. Worrying.
 
Yeah, I have no ill feelings towards the guy. Just not the right guy and won't be able to last long enough to be the right guy even if other things get better. This season was his last roll of the dice and currently its snake eyes.

I'm starting to have some ill feeling towards him. He serves up the most turgid football imaginable after buying all his favourite players and then tries to somehow explain it away with stupid anecdotes that don't make any sense.

All that aside though, his position is completely untenable, and to be honest it has been since early last season. If Ashworth can't look at the situation and see it's not remotely recoverable, perhaps his powers have been greatly exaggerated...

Talk of Tuchel and Thomas Frank. I'd actually be happy to give Frank a shot - I like him. Tuchel is the generic safer option though, for however long he lasts... I bet that's where they are looking. Or Potter.
 
I don't think anyone knows what will happen at this meeting today - it's a long standing engagement but the form of the team and manager will no doubt be a major point of discussion. The decent journalists are keeping their powder dry and saying ETH doesn't feel his job is under threat, but that's about it.

I am hoping they'll decide to part ways with ETH today, our horrendous form from last season has just continued into this one - ETH has broken his own record for worst Man Utd start to the season. :o

Tuchel is what I'd call the 'lazy' appointment. He's considered an elite manager, is available, with a good track record, but tends to self-implode after a while. Obviously I think he would be an improvement on a manager who is failing spectacularly, but there may be smarter options...

We've been here with the Glazers and Woodward before, dithering over a manager who is quite clearly finished. I hope INEOS will be more decisive; they were happy enough to waltz into the club and sack 25% of the workforce. If they don't act now, we'll be back here in 3-4 weeks...
 
...and then we'll be back here again in 2-3 years.

Or they'll make a good managerial appointment, start recruiting better players as part of a long term plan, and things will improve?

There's no reason to write the club off.
 
There's over a decade of reasons.

Right, so sticking with a bad manager is the solution? Is it going to help anything? No.

Since when has it 'improved' with any manager since LVG? Arguably that was only an improvement because it was after Moyes, it was still poor in comparison to Fergie's team and style.

If the rot is still there, appointing a new manager won't improve it. I don't think they will change until they know that the rest of the club is being run how they want.

What is the 'rot' you speak of - half the squad are players ETH knows? The likes of Rashford and Evans are the ones bailing him out at the moment. :cry:

I totally get there are wider issues, but come on, this manager is just as much of a problem. It's not like we played some decent football and just missed out on 4th last season, we've been dire for over a year and are currently heading for a relegation battle. :D
 
@Robbo the 'rot' is the players on contracts they do not deserve, e.g. "Rashford bailing out ETH" should be the least of his efforts considering his contract and standing within the squad. The club needs to find a way to recruit hungry players that have fight and desire to win, the manager cannot change the personality of a player. Those that don't show it should be gone, as poor attitude + high wages = a mentality crisis within the squad.

I kind of see the requirement of players like Evans, Maguire, Erikson - their professionalism and application sets good examples to the younger players. The likes of Rashford, Casemiro, Antony, and dare I say it... Fernandes are just infuriating in terms of their attitude and application of their supposed ability - Fergie would have had them gone after some of the performances they've put in.

Edit: You could argue ETH should be getting rid, and he's weak not to, but then he seems to be able to bench Antony - does the club or the fact the players are on such stupid contracts dictate that he can't do that with the others?

And I don't disagree with any of that, but Rashford is not to blame for Antony being an £80m flop - a player ETH knows well and wanted. There are multiple issues at play here but the manager for me is the immediate big one, he's had plenty of time and failed miserably. We could buy him 10 more players and get absolutely nowhere - based on current evidence. Way too big of a risk.

It's no good looking backwards, INEOS have installed what I believe to be a good football structure, but they haven't yet appointed the critical person - the manager. Cue the Gareth Southgate jokes!
 
You can't simply blame 'attitude issues' when the players he's dropping are his own. It's lazy to just say nothing will change and absolve the manager of any responsibility - he's shown nothing in terms of any progress. Nothing. What do you want? Give him another season to throw away? We finish 12th, sign a few more players, and then finish 14th? It's nonsense. Last season was utterly terrible and this season feels even worse, he's got to go, today. I am genuinely stunned people are fooled by him and are happy to put him ahead of the club based on him being a decent Ajax manager years ago? Madness.
 
I am stunned you actually think a different manager will lead to another outcome. We might have a little bounce but then it will be back to the same. How many managers do you need to go through before you finally realise the issues are far deeper?

As many as are required until we actually hire a competent one? LvG and Jose were on the decline. Moyes was Moyes. I thought Solskjaer was a massive gamble but he did reasonably well.

ETH came in, had an OK first season. Signed the players he wanted, and now we're cemented in the lower part of the table with no signs of hope. Great. ETH seems completely unable to get a tune out of the players, they don't even look like they are being coached at all. I think these 'deep' issues are being overstated because of a misguided belief that if you give a manager time he will come good - not true. The 'rot' for me was poorly appointed 'football men' at the club, these have been replaced by what we hope are superior people.

And with the greatest of respect Adam, you spent all of last season telling everyone things would turn around when we had more defenders available. You were wrong.
 
We're not cemented in the lower part of the table at all, it's been 7 games. The points gap between top and bottom is so low that a few wins can drastically change your position. This talk of being in a relegation battle is utter delusion. Sacking ETH isn't going to suddenly make the players finish their chances.

So you think our main issue has been finishing? Have you been watching the games... there's no structure to the team at all.

Last season we should have actually finished lower in the table and were a bit fortunate, statistically.

You're happy with ETH then and want to keep him? Last season he just needed a whole new defence, now we just need a world class striker? Next season it'll be a new midfield.
 
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