EV general discussion

[Jez]

This is where I think you're going wrong. I'm struggling to find a decent percentile breakdown of average distance travelled per day by car, but this US data suggests that the use case you're describing happens practically never. For EV companies to target this niche requirement is madness. The use case you're describing is just incredibly rare across the general population. And keep in mind, with one stop each way a Tesla will still cover 800 miles comfortably.

I'll definitely be going electric with my next vehicle. Tomorrow I'm driving 220 miles from Newcastle to Reading, returning Sunday. With an electric car I could do that with a stop each way, which I will be doing in my petrol car anyway. The journey will be no different. I only do 8,000 miles a year, and this journey is right at the extreme end of my driving. These trips happen once\twice per year.

I am not sure that it is safe to compare the US market to the UK market, with their very much more advanced attitude toward internal flights and the network there with that. Their distances put intercity car travel in the same place as railways, which are near non existent there too.

That said, doesnt your own link actually disagree with you? The >200 mile field shows a huge number of cars in absolute terms?

 

[Jez]

Any journey over 3 hours I will plan a stop. Quick stretch of the legs and a toilet break. About 15 mins. I can't imagine doing 4+ hour journeys without one. If nothing else I'm impressed with your bladder control. You clearly don't drink coffee while driving!

Haha, i do drink a lot of coffee but perhaps i do have good bladder control. I dont do long distances often, though. Although i have driven from Oxfordshire to Cornwall, or to Aberdeen without stopping before. My usual daily drive is ~2 hours each way to the office, which has become so routine that i barely notice it now.

Dont think that i am knocking EVs at all though, the original thing above was only over me thinking that actually there is a good market of people who would love and require long range from their cars I hope to have an EV in time, too. I just need to get my head around switching fuel burn cost into an upfront capital cost against a model S.

One significant driver for me towards an EV ironically is actually the range of a diesel, requiring fuel stops for me every 3 days/450 miles or so with my typical V6 diesel, during commute time, which is frankly just annoying. The idea that i can plug a Model S into a charger in my garage every night, like a phone, is immensely attractive.

 

[Journey]

With current charge speeds I guess ive never really considered charging away from home as being for anything other than an emergency, as that is how i imagine my own use case to be (i tend to never stop for breaks even on long journeys, services have never really been something which i have used despite doing 25-30k/year for 15+ years).

Which is odd, since you don't currently have a fuel pump on your property, right? So you currently have no option but to 'charge' away from home!

I just need to get my head around switching fuel burn cost into an upfront capital cost against a model S.

I wouldn't buy an S unless you need the space, go and test drive a Model 3 Performance and I'll take 5% of the annual fuel saving in the form of a cheque, ta.

 

[Jez]

Which is odd, since you don't currently have a fuel pump on your property, right? So you currently have no option but to 'charge' away from home!



I wouldn't buy an S unless you need the space, go and test drive a Model 3 Performance and I'll take 5% of the annual fuel saving in the form of a cheque, ta.

Indeed! I mentioned that (we probably cross posted) in my reply above, it is very annoying and ironically actually the lack of range of a typical V6 diesel which is a driver for me, I feel as though i am always stood there in the freezing cold refueling it.

I really do wish to test drive both a 3 and an S. I naturally prefer larger cars, and the S sitting in line with the Mercedes S and BMW 7 makes it seem a naturally better fit for me. Before this though, i need to get my head around the depreciation and idea that i would be pumping a lot of money into the car upfront, in comparison to a used E/S Class Merc. The maths work, i think

 

[Fusion]

Can’t you go down the company car route Jez? 0% BIK from April.

 

[Jez]

My cars are private, i dont have a company

 

[Deleted member 66701]

He doesnt claim to do it on a particularly regular basis But clearly a private hire will so it sometimes, and when you do need to do it, you can hardly ask your passengers to wait around for hours while you recharge your EV half way down the M1, can you?

This kind of mileage will transfer from private car hire to trains.

 

[jpaul]

refilling a diesel every 3 days - you choose the time/weather/queue and sychronise with other activities shopping/nature-break, arguably less intrusive than plugging/unplugging the car, in the inclement weather at home w/o garage .. presumably there an interlock, so you cant drive off still attached.

bev battery life - has it been proven that manufacturers don't sandbag the capacity, with spare cells/overhead, so that they can substitute for a bad cell, or, present, a perpetually 100% preserved capacity to the owner (you similarly design such redundancy into computer memory manufacture ).

 

[skookum]

This kind of mileage will transfer from private car hire to trains.

Our software venders for private hire dispatch system bought a Canadian private hire company that was exclusively electric fleet.

The idea proved popular at first with those conscious about their cardon footprint.

As nothing on the market had the range for the journeys a long trip would involve passengers swapping into other vehicles at points the computer designated.

Passengers soon got fed up with it and the company went bust. The software vender bought the company to aid other private hire firms looking to go EV.

 

[Jez]

refilling a diesel every 3 days - you choose the time/weather/queue and sychronise with other activities shopping/nature-break,
.

I dont have nature breaks on a daily commute, i zombie up and down one fixed route, it is annoying refueling which i think a few people above agreed with. I am not saying that it is a huge deal, but an EV never needs this and is actually a really nice driver towards one for me. Plugging it in parked in the same garage bay each night doesn't seem like much hassle, it seems preferable to standing there waiting in public filling the car up? Remember also that while the EV is on mains power in the garage it can also preheat itself etc, which is another nice thing that my diesels dont have.

 

[Journey]

arguably less intrusive than plugging/unplugging the car, in the inclement weather at home w/o garage

Actual ROFL, seriously? You get out of the vehicle, which you have to anyhow, and then pick up the charging cable from your charging box, and plug it in to the flap you opened before getting out. It adds roughly 15 secs on to your routine, maybe more like 30 seconds if you chose to wind and unwind a longer cable.

 

[Jez]

This is my thought too, surely it is no hassle compared with continual diesel filling. I can mount the charger right next to where you know the charge connector on the car will be. The car would reside every night in exactly the same bay in the same garage, it'd sit there from approx 6pm until approx 5:30am, so a good 11 hours per day bar very short additional trips locally, for which i'd likely use our diesel 4x4 anyway as it is more suited to the local lanes.

 

[Murf]

refilling a diesel every 3 days - you choose the time/weather/queue and sychronise with other activities shopping/nature-break, arguably less intrusive than plugging/unplugging the car, in the inclement weather at home w/o garage .. presumably there an interlock, so you cant drive off still attached.

Ridiculous. Driving to a petrol station and filling up takes 5-10 mins. Plugging your car in to charge as you exit it in the evening, 10-15 seconds.

bev battery life - has it been proven that manufacturers don't sandbag the capacity, with spare cells/overhead, so that they can substitute for a bad cell, or, present, a perpetually 100% preserved capacity to the owner (you similarly design such redundancy into computer memory manufacture ).

No idea why you're even asking this, it's completely irrelevant to the effectiveness of an EV car. And batteries have shown surprising longevity, look at the 2012 Model S Teslas still going strong. 90% battery life remaining after 150,000 miles.

 

[jpaul]

No idea why you're even asking this, it's completely irrelevant to the effectiveness of an EV car. And batteries have shown surprising longevity, look at the 2012 Model S Teslas still going strong. 90% battery life remaining after 150,000 miles.

because of the I've still got 100% capacity comments a page back
googling - a more comprehensible explanation - https://cleantechnica.com/2018/08/26/the-secret-life-of-an-ev-battery/ ?

obviously - the topic raised of reduced power available at lower charge, is pretty interesting, for lower powered ev's than M3,
I know how much power(edit #) my petrol car has on tap for an overtake, wouldn't want to be caught short (continuing the euphemisms)

#elaborating I don't mean the Kwhrs left in the battery, rather what power can it give me here and now.

 

[bimbleuk]

bev battery life - has it been proven that manufacturers don't sandbag the capacity, with spare cells/overhead, so that they can substitute for a bad cell, or, present, a perpetually 100% preserved capacity to the owner (you similarly design such redundancy into computer memory manufacture ).

Yes there's some over provisioning or buffering in all battery packs. Excluding some of the Model S/X versions with software limited ranges to differentiate models they tend to only have a few KWs of buffer. Porsche, Audi, Jaguar and some of the other EVs with 64 kwh or larger packs have varying amounts of hidden battery capacity to promote certain traits. Audi like to have a fairly flat and predictable charging curve. Porsche advertise extremely low or zero performance loss as the SOC reduces. Other manufacturers may just be preserving larger buffers to help reduce the perceived degradation over time.

Most of the established brand battery packs have been completely dissembled down to the component and chemical level so any hidden capacity will have become obvious. Look up Munro a company that disassembles vehicles to reverse engineer, cost analyse and improve production techniques which they then sell back or to competitors.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

The performance loss is also minimal anyway until you get to a very low SOC.sure it’s something you’ll notice on a drag strip or on a track but not on an open road where 99% of your driving you’ll only ever utilise the first 150hp anyway (if that).

When I say very low SOC, we’re talking 5% very low, the EVs often kicks into low power mode at this point and then a limp mode once it gets down to zero. You can still travel at speed in low power mode and you still have enough power, you’ll just not be winning any red light drag races with a hot hatch at that point. But you’ll still probably beat a normal hatch to the next light.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

refilling a diesel every 3 days - you choose the time/weather/queue and sychronise with other activities shopping/nature-break, arguably less intrusive than plugging/unplugging the car, in the inclement weather at home w/o garage .. presumably there an interlock, so you cant drive off still attached.

bev battery life - has it been proven that manufacturers don't sandbag the capacity, with spare cells/overhead, so that they can substitute for a bad cell, or, present, a perpetually 100% preserved capacity to the owner (you similarly design such redundancy into computer memory manufacture ).

how many miles do you do to refill a diesel every 3 days?

the wifes car lasts 2 weeks and it's a petrol.

as for time/weather and queue isn't that all arguments for an electric car?

as in it charges when you get out and plug it in. there is no queue and the weather is the same as when you would be getting out the car anyway.

i'd say the pro's of an electric car are way better than the one con which is range. i very rarely do more than 30 miles per day. max range i'd need is say 100 miles. on the odd occasion i might do 500 miles but i could always borrow a car or get a plane instead.

 

[jpaul]

The performance loss is also minimal

related (half explanation) video about the Hyundai Kona https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vthUcfq5IOk
seems you can set 'winter mode', when it is cold (maybe it never is in the uk), and low SOC, which, then gives a predictable level of performance @47bhp,
potentially by enabling more battery heating ... Hyundai needs to provide a definitive explanation ie. what happens without it.


[

how many miles do you do to refill a diesel every 3 days?

that's the taxi driver, I'm usually once a week.
]

 

[McPhee]

refilling a diesel every 3 days - you choose the time/weather/queue and sychronise with other activities shopping/nature-break, arguably less intrusive than plugging/unplugging the car, in the inclement weather at home w/o garage .. presumably there an interlock, so you cant drive off still attached.

Takes seconds to disconnect a tethered charger.

Untethered, sure. There are mornings where I'm a bit "urgh... this is not going to be an enjoyable experience". On those days, the cable tends to just get chucked in the house or in the passenger footwell; no messing around with bags and storing it in the boot.

bev battery life - has it been proven that manufacturers don't sandbag the capacity, with spare cells/overhead, so that they can substitute for a bad cell, or, present, a perpetually 100% preserved capacity to the owner (you similarly design such redundancy into computer memory manufacture ).

This is a thing. IIRC there's always reserve capacity though, even once the battery has degraded. The reason being that the life of the battery is greatly extended with cell rotation.

 

[skookum]

On a night shift at the moment and it is really interesting. I am in a semi rural area. Being late most people are at home. Cars are parked everywhere, on the roadside, on corners residential car parks etc.

Even houses with driveways have cars parked on the roadside as many households have more than one vehicle.

I simply cannot see how the country will convert to EV without either a major reduction in vehicles or some new technology that doesn't require them to be charged for long periods.

If there is a major reduction in people's access to vehicles due to being unable to charge one imagine the amount of tax that will be put on the road users left to plug the hole in fuel revenues.