EV general discussion

[bigmike20vt]

Hmrc have not make phevs straightforward!

tell me about it. my car is >95% of it's miles as full EV. in most other countries its treated as a full EV. in UK however not only an I paying full ICE tax (not even the cheaper tax some other ice cars pay, but I am also on the hook for luxury car tax as the bloody engine took it over £40K when new (I didn't realise that when I agreed with the Mrs to get it).

oh well!. clearly it's dirtier than our "Eco" diesel that was written off which only cost £35 a year tax :/

I fully admit I am envious of all the tax breaks company car drivers get and get the private person gets ******** all.

 

[sandys]

If the HV heater is heated an aluminium engine to 90C before it gets to the cabin something is really wrong

Yup I certainly don't get the option to use the engines residual heat instead of battery when parked up on the school run if I've only used EV, so the engine is definitely not that hot, that only happens when the engine has been running for a while, but I was told that was part of the function of the heater to bring up battery and engine temps when cold, perhaps I misunderstood, or was misinformed.

 

[Scougar]

While peak energy demands has been dropping slowly over the last 2 decades, it will start creeping up again due to the wind down of gas. Space heating can be time shifted to an extent but not fully. Cooking is more difficult and there is a lot of gas hobs out there still.

That will help maintain the peak/offpeak pricing. There is only so much home battery storage you can install while still being cost effective. In those really cold dark days, heat pump will rinse a 10kwh battery in a few hours when it’s -5 outside but it’s not worth installing tons of extra batteries that you only need 15 days a year.


The cars are considerably cheaper than in 2018 and there is also a huge variety available now with much better ranges. If you can charge at home, the economic case is about the same.

Charging stations are not regularly broken, broken chargers are a thing but there are so many now, it actually being a problem isn’t really a thing anymore and the major networks are generally on top of their maintenance.

Hybrid doesn’t solve the emissions problem. Most people don’t charge their plug in hybrids and only have them because they are cheaper than diesel on a company car scheme. They are more complex, plug ins are as expensive as an EV to buy and according to the data, more likely to catch fire than any other propulsion type (with an EV being the least likely).

Lithium is going off the scale price wise. Subsidies are less than in 2018. Tesla's are far more expensive now than even three years ago. Electric is up in price.

EMISSIONS are NOT resolved with electric vehicles. I don't want to derail, but it is an absolute myth. They are offset somewhere else (i.e. a power station). The environmental cost for creating an electric car is far worse than a regular engine car as well.

It may be different as I'm in the USA for the past 10 years, but I can't imagine the situation is really any different in the UK.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Lithium is going off the scale price wise. Subsidies are less than in 2018. Tesla's are far more expensive now than even three years ago. Electric is up in price.

EMISSIONS are NOT resolved with electric vehicles. I don't want to derail, but it is an absolute myth. They are offset somewhere else (i.e. a power station). The environmental cost for creating an electric car is far worse than a regular engine car as well.

It may be different as I'm in the USA for the past 10 years, but I can't imagine the situation is really any different in the UK.

it really is different. in the UK today for instance around 75% of our energy was either renewable (about 55%) or nuclear.
I don't know about the us but in the UK EVs are massively better and the break even point on the carbon debt is around £12k miles, .(from memory)

as the grid gets cleaner and batteries ditch rare materials the gap will only get bigger.

of course a bike is better still but........

btw I am talking about European cars as well which tend to be smaller than the US ones (though admittedly our cars have grown hugely in the last decade as well but not the 5l monster engines that the US have.

 

[Calpol]

Lithium is going off the scale price wise. Subsidies are less than in 2018. Tesla's are far more expensive now than even three years ago. Electric is up in price.

EMISSIONS are NOT resolved with electric vehicles. I don't want to derail, but it is an absolute myth. They are offset somewhere else (i.e. a power station). The environmental cost for creating an electric car is far worse than a regular engine car as well.

It may be different as I'm in the USA for the past 10 years, but I can't imagine the situation is really any different in the UK.

..and your solution to carbon emitting is?
Few people claim that EVs resolve every issue but they are the best alternative at present and represent a way of significantly reducing carbon emissions over the vehicle usage cycle. Add the fact that they can be run on renewable power and will progressively be so powered. If people are concerned about immigration now then wait for another 20 years when global warming drives millions north into the more temperate climates of the UK and parts of the US.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Lithium is going off the scale price wise. Subsidies are less than in 2018. Tesla's are far more expensive now than even three years ago. Electric is up in price.

EMISSIONS are NOT resolved with electric vehicles. I don't want to derail, but it is an absolute myth. They are offset somewhere else (i.e. a power station). The environmental cost for creating an electric car is far worse than a regular engine car as well.

It may be different as I'm in the USA for the past 10 years, but I can't imagine the situation is really any different in the UK.

Lithium and electric prices are both dropping.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Lithium is going off the scale price wise.

No its not, its literally crashing right now and is significantly lower than it was last year.

Its also a tiny fraction of the bill of materials in an EV, there is only about 15-18kg in a 70kwh battery in car made up of 1,800-2,000kg of material.

Subsidies are less than in 2018.

So? Cars are cheaper now with more range, the government doesn't need to throw away tens of millions of £ to people who can afford them anyway.

Tesla's are far more expensive now than even three years ago.

No they are not, they are really not.

The cheapest Tesla you could buy in early 2021 (3 years ago) cost £41,000 (Tesla Model 3 SR 55kwh with 190 miles real world range). The cheapest Tesla you can buy today costs £40,000 (Tesla Model 3 SR 60kwh with 230 miles real world range).

Electric is up in price.

Yes, well done but its also dropping. Petrol and Diesel is also up significantly and its benefitted from a permanent 5p cut in tax.

The cheapest EV tariff you could get in 2020 was 5p/kwh, the cheapest you can get today is 7p/kwh. It's the difference between 1.5p/mile and 2p/mile for a car with 300hp, which is still significantly lower than 14p-18p.mile for a reasonably efficient petrol car with at most a 150hp 4 pot engine.

EMISSIONS are NOT resolved with electric vehicles.

They are, this is proven beyond doubt with successive studies from credible institutions, even on a grid dominated by coal.

I don't want to derail, but it is an absolute myth.

You've literally just posted 3 myths yourself, not counting the ones below.

They are offset somewhere else (i.e. a power station).

So putting the emissions they do output up a massive smoke stack outside of populated areas is worse than spraying them right in our faces from the tailpipe of an ICE car?

The environmental cost for creating an electric car is far worse than a regular engine car as well.

No it isn't, this is proven beyond doubt with successive studies from credible institutions.

It may be different as I'm in the USA for the past 10 years, but I can't imagine the situation is really any different in the UK.

Your take makes more sense how you have disclose you are in the USA...

P.S. there are huge incentives in the USA currently, in some states you can get a Model Y for $28,000 + taxes and fees. If those are not incredible subsidies, I don't know what is. The same car is £44k over here.

The irony of the of the hairy chested, truck driving, die hard Republicans hating electric cars is that the Model Y is the most American car you can actually buy in America made by a company headed by a vocal Republican supporter. #MAGA....

I may have gone a bit over the top there

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Good shift put in there!

 

[Journey]

Lithium is going off the scale price wise.

Is it?

Subsidies are less than in 2018. Tesla's are far more expensive now than even three years ago.

$2999 down and $330 a month for a M3 SR+ with $7500 credit - was more expensive in 2020 for a technically inferior car. The MSRP was lower in 2020, but the actual cost to 'use' one is less than it has ever been.

 

[bigmike20vt]

well I guess going off the scale doesn't necessarily mean up. free fall could also be off the scale

 

[Scougar]

Is it?

$2999 down and $330 a month for a M3 SR+ with $7500 credit - was more expensive in 2020 for a technically inferior car. The MSRP was lower in 2020, but the actual cost to 'use' one is less than it has ever been.

It 'was'. That's the main cause of a 25%+ increase in price of Tesla's for example. Let me know when the electric battery prices plummet and those electric cars come back down in price.

 

[Scougar]

No its not, its literally crashing right now and is significantly lower than it was last year.

Its also a tiny fraction of the bill of materials in an EV, there is only about 15-18kg in a 70kwh battery in car made up of 1,800-2,000kg of material.


So? Cars are cheaper now with more range, the government doesn't need to throw away tens of millions of £ to people who can afford them anyway.


No they are not, they are really not.

The cheapest Tesla you could buy in early 2021 (3 years ago) cost £41,000 (Tesla Model 3 SR 55kwh with 190 miles real world range). The cheapest Tesla you can buy today costs £40,000 (Tesla Model 3 SR 60kwh with 230 miles real world range).


Yes, well done but its also dropping. Petrol and Diesel is also up significantly and its benefitted from a permanent 5p cut in tax.

The cheapest EV tariff you could get in 2020 was 5p/kwh, the cheapest you can get today is 7p/kwh. It's the difference between 1.5p/mile and 2p/mile for a car with 300hp, which is still significantly lower than 14p-18p.mile for a reasonably efficient petrol car with at most a 150hp 4 pot engine.


They are, this is proven beyond doubt with successive studies from credible institutions, even on a grid dominated by coal.


You've literally just posted 3 myths yourself, not counting the ones below.


So putting the emissions they do output up a massive smoke stack outside of populated areas is worse than spraying them right in our faces from the tailpipe of an ICE car?

No it isn't, this is proven beyond doubt with successive studies from credible institutions.

Your take makes more sense how you have disclose you are in the USA...

P.S. there are huge incentives in the USA currently, in some states you can get a Model Y for $28,000 + taxes and fees. If those are not incredible subsidies, I don't know what is. The same car is £44k over here.

The irony of the of the hairy chested, truck driving, die hard Republicans hating electric cars is that the Model Y is the most American car you can actually buy in America made by a company headed by a vocal Republican supporter. #MAGA....

I may have gone a bit over the top there

I disclose I'm in the USA, because prices are different. No need to be a ****.

Emissions: If we concentrate all the emissions in one place..... that doesn't really make it any better does it. This is exactly like how we dump trash in the ocean, or send waste to other countries. As long as it 'isn't in my back yard' mentality.

Don't bring me facts lol. (P.s. I can admit when I'm wrong though )

I simply don't believe that electric car's in their current state are 'the answer', at least not sustainably. We need to find another battery tech that is sustainable, and not so darn toxic. Turning entire area's in China to toxic dumps is not cool.

I think that in 15 to 25 years we may be at a place where it makes sense. Again.. I could be wrong, but that's my take.

 

[lordrobs]

I simply don't believe that electric car's in their current state are 'the answer',

They don't necessarily need to be. All they need to be right now is better than the alternative, which they are.

Battery technology will be driven by sales. If people are buying current technology EVs there is a business case for the battery manufacturers to invest in developing more energy dense, cheaper, cleaner, lighter batteries which they can then push to the vehicle manufacturers to get an edge on cost, performance or range.

We've already seen massive leaps since the likes of the OG Leaf and Peugeot ION. These were arguably too compromised for people whereas many people could make an EV work for them now.

 

[jpaul]

It 'was'. That's the main cause of a 25%+ increase in price of Tesla's for example. Let me know when the electric battery prices plummet and those electric cars come back down in price.

Google didn't tell lynch mob about the chinese domestic lithium market either (like the domestic russian oil price) - that, is real production cost (maybe subsidised by western buyers, or chinese government) going into the chinese cars batteries, that contributes to them undercutting western manufacturers.

Equally a least for british ev imports we currently just cover our eyes with respect to carbon cost during the manufacture of the chinese cars (coal power stations), just striving for our domestic carbon goals,
that is until we finally institute rules of origin - taxation, to offset that subsidy chinese cars have - like bidens IRA

 

[steve5424]

Google didn't tell lynch mob about the chinese domestic lithium market either (like the domestic russian oil price) - that, is real production cost (maybe subsidised by western buyers, or chinese government) going into the chinese cars batteries, that contributes to them undercutting western manufacturers.

Equally a least for british ev imports we currently just cover our eyes with respect to carbon cost during the manufacture of the chinese cars (coal power stations), just striving for our domestic carbon goals,
that is until we finally institute rules of origin - taxation, to offset that subsidy chinese cars have - like bidens IRA

In 2023 coal accounted for around 60% of all electricity in China.

Also what???

 

[Mr Jack]

Emissions: If we concentrate all the emissions in one place..... that doesn't really make it any better does it. This is exactly like how we dump trash in the ocean, or send waste to other countries. As long as it 'isn't in my back yard' mentality.

There's a big difference here. While CO2 will do much the same thing regardless of where they are released, releasing other pollutants such as particulates, NOx, and CO away from where people live is a big benefit in terms of human health. And large scale production is usually more efficient anyway so produces proportionately less. Besides, the point isn't so much moving the emissions but that electricity is increasingly generated by means that release minimal levels of CO2 and, whereas a petrol car will keep on emitting throughout its lifetime, an electric car will become less polluting as the grid improves.

EVs do have higher production emissions (for now, at least) but this is easily offset during their working lifetime.

I simply don't believe that electric car's in their current state are 'the answer', at least not sustainably.

Here I agree with you. EVs are a big improvement on ICE cars, and becoming more so all the time, but - ultimately - cars shouldn't be our primary transport solution. We're a long way from solving that, though.

We need to find another battery tech that is sustainable, and not so darn toxic. Turning entire area's in China to toxic dumps is not cool.

The collection of fossil fuels produce far more emissions and pollution than the collection of Lithium. While there are problems with the extraction of Lithium and other elements, these are completely dwarfed by the problems with the extraction of coal and oil even before you look at the carbon emissions produced. This problem has been wildly exaggerated - probably deliberately. Current battery technology is good enough for EVs to become mainstream, but it's also getting better and cheaper at a truly incredible rate.

 

[Jonnycoupe]

Inflation Reduction Act.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Emissions: If we concentrate all the emissions in one place..... that doesn't really make it any better does it. This is exactly like how we dump trash in the ocean, or send waste to other countries. As long as it 'isn't in my back yard' mentality.

I simply don't believe that electric car's in their current state are 'the answer', at least not sustainably. We need to find another battery tech that is sustainable, and not so darn toxic. Turning entire area's in China to toxic dumps is not cool.

Concentrating the emissions in one place and pushing it up a huge smoke stack in the middle of nowhere is more beneficial to human and non-human health. The grid, even in America, is producing less and less emissions everyday. In the U.K. grid emissions have dropped 50% in the last decade. it can and will drop to zero in the next couple of decades, even in China.

You also mention about lithium mining damaging what in reality is a small amount of land, have you seen the Canada tar sands by any chance? It looks like a really pleasant place.

The damage from extracting the iron ore dwarfs that of any other element by several orders of magnitude. Literally no one asks where their iron ore has come from which makes up the steel and the damage that does.

Have a look at this handy infographic which tells the mining story: https://elements.visualcapitalist.com/all-the-metals-we-mined-in-one-visualization/

I think that in 15 to 25 years we may be at a place where it makes sense. Again.. I could be wrong, but that's my take.

We are already there now, the only remaining issues is the upfront costs and putting in place the relevant infrastructure for those who don’t have their own off street parking. Neither are insurmountable.

 

[bigmike20vt]

that is until we finally institute rules of origin - taxation, to offset that subsidy chinese cars have - like bidens IRA

Personally I am a big supporter of taking the manufacture of our vehicles into account when it comes to the environmental costs.

where i believe you are mistaken is that even then, EVs are still a cleaner option over all than buying a NEW ICE (i fully support the notion of not getting rid of perfectly good cars just because of the fuel they use).

China always get the blame for being "dirty" but the only reason they are so dirty is because of all the cheap plastic tat they make for the western world. Those people saying "but China" as an excuse for refusing to support renewable energy generation for instance will have to come up with a new excuse fairly soon...... because as much as they may still use a lot of fossil fuels, their renewables are increasing at an amazing rate that most of the rest of the world are not even close to.

btw lynch mob? you undermine any potentially valid point you may have by coming out with crap like that.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

China produces less emissions per head than the U.K. which is about half of America.

China isn’t the problem here….