EV general discussion

[Jonnycoupe]

easy answer short term is what’s been happening. You buy credits off others as it’s more cost effective than rushing to market with products. Long term you then get a battery plant for domestic build, but that’s legacy slow auto and flakey future on “dodgy waters” in the same conversation here but they are anything but connected. Quite the opposite.

 

[bigmike20vt]

I'll almost certainly be charging at home (or my parents on a Friday if I really need to) so not worried about any range issues thankfully. It's mainly the purchasing of a new car. I've only owned 3 cars and I didn't have the best of luck with the last one so bit nervous about a complete new type of car

if you are worried then buy a used approved car from a main dealer which offer a comprehensive warranty... sure you pay a little more, but still way less than buying new.

if you can get the sweet company car tax savings deals then new is fine but for most people who do not qualify for that, a 2nd hand ev is a far safer bet than new.

even without an extended warranty, the battery should still be covered on most cars under 8 years old and 100k miles.

PS i owned a money pit car once.... the burgundy fiat coupe in my sig was a bit of a dog........ tho perhaps on the bright side it did save me money over all................ i was on the cusp of pulling the pin on getting a TVR cerbera however a little taste of what its like owning a car you cant rely on put me off despite loving the one i went in.


every cloud and all that

 

[Deep]

if you are worried then buy a used approved car from a main dealer which offer a comprehensive warranty... sure you pay a little more, but still way less than buying new.

if you can get the sweet company car tax savings deals then new is fine but for most people who do not qualify for that, a 2nd hand ev is a far safer bet than new.

Yeah I'll only buy from a main dealer.

So funnily enough our company does that but the prices are silly high, £900 a month for a specced out ID5 or Skoda Enyaq. Over £1,000 for a Kia Niro 4
I was going to do that but after seeing those prices I quickly sat back down

 

[Deleted User 298457]

So funnily enough our company does that but the prices are silly high, £900 a month for a specced out ID5 or Skoda Enyaq. Over £1,000 for a Kia Niro 4
I was going to do that but after seeing those prices I quickly sat back down

Is that before tax? And have you costed in insurance, nil deposit etc...?

 

[Mr Jack]

The choice is pull out or raise the Average selling price because no matter the Goverments intentions there will never be 100% EV take up by 2030.

Or just sell EVs, and make money on those? If selling ICE isn't profitable they needn't do it.

 

[Deleted User 298457]

Damn, Kona is dirt cheap on salary sacrifice (exchange £493). I'm not due until July next year and my original plan was to buy something cheap second hand. This is hard to turn my nose up against though....320mile range version too!

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Or just sell EVs, and make money on those? If selling ICE isn't profitable they needn't do it.

Agreed.

People generally buy what’s available at the price they are will in to pay. Up until now, the price difference between and EV and an ICE car has been so high it doesn’t make much sense for a private buyer.

That historic blocker is becoming a thing of the past as every day that goes past.

 

[bigmike20vt]

Damn, Kona is dirt cheap on salary sacrifice (exchange £493). I'm not due until July next year and my original plan was to buy something cheap second hand. This is hard to turn my nose up against though....320mile range version too!

that is sweet!.... my mate has a model Y dual motor version for under £600.

if you can get those deals it would be hard to turn down, however on the bright side there are some great 3 year old 2nd hand kona prices as well....

 

[lordrobs]

What he is failing to realise is that BEV's are going to be a huge part of the future make up of the renewable grid/support, and home storage for people, not just something that takes you from A to B to C.

You are right he's a full on grandad, living firmly in the past.

How is that relevant to cars being sold under the current ZEV mandate? If anything it doubles down on the whole "I think there will be a change in technology..." argument that a lot of people state as a barrier to going EV.

Don't make the anti EV sentiments a generational thing. I can only name two people I know who have bought a brand new EV with their own cash (I know shed loads on the BIK / 100% write down gravy train) and one of them was 79 at the time.

In my opinion it's a shame that PHEV don't count against the ZEV target, even if at a lower ratio because what better advert is there for going BEV next time round than finding that you hardly ever put fuel in your PHEV?

 

[Journey]

How is that relevant to cars being sold under the current ZEV mandate? If anything it doubles down on the whole "I think there will be a change in technology..." argument that a lot of people state as a barrier to going EV.

His video wasn't solely focused on a mandate and covered lots of points. As for the argument people see a change in technology, the technology is already there, it's mainly software and bi-directional power that needs to be in place.

Don't make the anti EV sentiments a generational thing. I can only name two people I know who have bought a brand new EV with their own cash (I know shed loads on the BIK / 100% write down gravy train) and one of them was 79 at the time.

I didn't. Shame a lot more people could take advantage like I did, but reading crap in the media rather than doing your own research puts you behind the curve I guess.

In my opinion it's a shame that PHEV don't count against the ZEV target, even if at a lower ratio because what better advert is there for going BEV next time round than finding that you hardly ever put fuel in your PHEV?

They should only count if the PHEV is capable of 60+ miles of range using a new test cycle, not WLTP rubbish.

 

[Calpol]

In my opinion it's a shame that PHEV don't count against the ZEV target, even if at a lower ratio because what better advert is there for going BEV next time round than finding that you hardly ever put fuel in your PHEV?

They do count albeit indirectly. There is mechanism within the ZEV Mandate for OEMS with cleaner fleets to effectively reduce their target. It means that the likes of Toyota who have historically had a greener fleet have some mitigation to their 2024 target. This will help offset the fact that they only have one BEV in market at present.

4.13 The flexibilities to mitigate the risk of excessive compliance costs and under-delivery alsoinclude the option for manufacturers to transfer allowances between the ZEV mandate andnon-ZEV CO₂ scheme component targets. Transfers from the non-ZEV to ZEV schemesallow manufacturers to use their more efficient non-ZEVs already baked into currentproduction plans to assist with delivering ZEV targets.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

Don't make the anti EV sentiments a generational thing. I can only name two people I know who have bought a brand new EV with their own cash (I know shed loads on the BIK / 100% write down gravy train) and one of them was 79 at the time.

I'd argue this is very much a function of the incentives, if the government offered up all the cash they are giving away to corporates via CT deductions and individuals via BIK deductions as a cash grant off the sale of a new car to everyone, I imagine you'd see a lot more private purchases.

One of the main reasons for there not being that many private purchases is down to the historic price differential between ICE and EV and a private purchaser is getting sticker shock putting them off as they have to front the cash upfront and hope the running costs pan out in their favour. £7-£10k buys A LOT of fuel...

In my opinion it's a shame that PHEV don't count against the ZEV target, even if at a lower ratio because what better advert is there for going BEV next time round than finding that you hardly ever put fuel in your PHEV?

to add to the above is that PHEV's have historically been used as a tax dodge and for compliance purposes. It's only works if you plug it in and too many people don't and there is no way to police that.

 

[lordrobs]

His video wasn't solely focused on a mandate and covered lots of points. As for the argument people see a change in technology, the technology is already there, it's mainly software and bi-directional power that needs to be in place.


I didn't. Shame a lot more people could take advantage like I did, but reading crap in the media rather than doing your own research puts you behind the curve I guess.



They should only count if the PHEV is capable of 60+ miles of range using a new test cycle, not WLTP rubbish.

The point is that it isn't currently available on most (any?) EVs that you can buy in the UK, yet the mandate is stipulating that 22% of cars produced are BEV right now. He even referenced that V2G was a good technology in the video which is why I was confused by your comment.

The issue is people putting their money where there mouth is and buying new. At the moment almost everyone falls into one of three camps - BIK gravy train, Write down gravy train, Depreciation benefitter. Almost no one is fronting up the cash (or the monthlies) to buy a new BEV and the barriers to people doing that need to be addressed because BIK and write down won't be around forever and heavy depreciation isn't ideal longer term.

As for 60+ miles... Why? Did you just come up with that figure or is it based on a statistical reason? The video also referenced the need for better testing so I guess you are in agreement with grandad there.

They do count albeit indirectly. There is mechanism within the ZEV Mandate for OEMS with cleaner fleets to effectively reduce their target. It means that the likes of Toyota who have historically had a greener fleet have some mitigation to their 2024 target. This will help offset the fact that they only have one BEV in market at present.

Yeah I meant to mention that but then my dinner arrived

I'd argue this is very much a function of the incentives, if the government offered up all the cash they are giving away to corporates via CT deductions and individuals via BIK deductions as a cash grant off the sale of a new car to everyone, I imagine you'd see a lot more private purchases.

One of the main reasons for there not being that many private purchases is down to the historic price differential between ICE and EV and a private purchaser is getting sticker shock putting them off as they have to front the cash upfront and hope the running costs pan out in their favour. £7-£10k buys A LOT of fuel...

Yup a fair comment that was also referenced in the video.

to add to the above is that PHEV's have historically been used as a tax dodge and for compliance purposes. It's only works if you plug it in and too many people don't and there is no way to police that.

That is because HMRC use the blunt instrument of treating all hybrids simply as standard petrol or diesel cars. If your company pays for your fuel and you pay back at a set rate by plugging the thing in you are paying twice.

I'm lucky in that I choose the policy for my company car but not everyone is able to dictate the system they are on.

Anyone who gets reimbursed for work miles would be daft not to plug the thing in every night and max out electric miles.

 

[SDK^]

Harry video's do create good conversation

• EV's don't work because 2 miles per kWh average efficiency and high public costs mean running cost parity with ICE.
• He runs his ICE vehicles on biofuels, with dubious environment claims and £LOL per litre
• Hybrids work because JLR gave him a discount on his new RR Sport

Did I miss anything?

 

[Deep]

Is that before tax? And have you costed in insurance, nil deposit etc...?

Post tax.

Yep! Insurance is gonna be £800 a year max and home charger around £1k.

Even though I need to take a loan out to fund part of the car the repayment will be £450ish which is fine.

I'll have a look at the Kona and see the price of that tomorrow

 

[Mr Jack]

In my opinion it's a shame that PHEV don't count against the ZEV target, even if at a lower ratio because what better advert is there for going BEV next time round than finding that you hardly ever put fuel in your PHEV?

Because they're crap in the real world. Their actual CO2 emissions are barely better than pure ICE: 105 gCO2 / km for private vehicles and 175 – 195 gCO2 / km for company cars - and that's on top of substantially higher production costs. I guess some of that is that PHEV cars are mostly the larger, higher-end, models rather than inherent to the technology, but a good amount of it is simply that PHEVs need to lug around both forms of propulsion. A battery first, range extender model might be better, but they're rare.

The main advantage is that they tend to run pure electric in towns and cities, which has the same air quality improvement contribution as BEV.

 

[adam cool dude]

On what metric? Because it ain't money

Are they not axing basically every model and the only Jaguar you can buy in 2025 is the F Pace so essentially Jaguar are going to be a 1 model lineup for at least a year? That doesn't sound like a company that is doing well.

 

[lordrobs]

Because they're crap in the real world. Their actual CO2 emissions are barely better than pure ICE: 105 gCO2 / km for private vehicles and 175 – 195 gCO2 / km for company cars - and that's on top of substantially higher production costs. I guess some of that is that PHEV cars are mostly the larger, higher-end, models rather than inherent to the technology, but a good amount of it is simply that PHEVs need to lug around both forms of propulsion. A battery first, range extender model might be better, but they're rare.

The main advantage is that they tend to run pure electric in towns and cities, which has the same air quality improvement contribution as BEV.

Perhaps that's where a qualifier comes in like Journey suggested? 60+ miles of EV range starts to blur the lines between hybrids and range extenders anyway. As long as that range is semi realistic but that comes back to the question of whether the current testing methods are suitable.

Just to counter my own 'for' argument, I guess the 'against' is that it doesn't put the pressure on to ensure public charging is made, and remains, sufficient for the eventual full switch to EV.

 

[Mr Jack]

Perhaps that's where a qualifier comes in like Journey suggested? 60+ miles of EV range starts to blur the lines between hybrids and range extenders anyway. As long as that range is semi realistic but that comes back to the question of whether the current testing methods are suitable.

I think the problem is that 60+ miles is probably beyond the sweet spot for PHEV anyway. Because PHEVs are less efficient than BEVs on electric, they'd need about 30kWh of batteries for that which weighs about 500-750kg. Plus the extra weight of the motors required, etc., and you're looking at lugging the better part of a tonne of extra weight. PHEVs do gain some efficiency compared to pure ICE because they can recover energy from the braking and the drive train but even so having that much extra weight makes the car much less efficient.

Also, although the efficiency on short journeys can be much improved, and the majority of journeys are short, as proportion of actual miles travelled longer journeys make up the majority (especially for company cars) so gains on shorter journeys don't have the overall win you'd expect at first look.

I see the appeal of PHEVs, and I think that if PHEVs were designed more like the original Prius where the whole drivetrain was designed to maximise efficiency they might be closer to hitting that appeal, but overall I think they're a mostly poor technology which fails to deliver in real world usage. For some users, sure, they're spot on. But for most people, we'd be better pushing efficient ICE and taxing the absolute buggery out of bloated SUVs than pushing PHEV.

 

[Journey]

I think the problem is that 60+ miles is probably beyond the sweet spot for PHEV anyway. Because PHEVs are less efficient than BEVs on electric, they'd need about 30kWh of batteries for that which weighs about 500-750kg.

That might be true for huge ass SUV's, and badly design drive trains, at the other end of the scale you have PHEV's with 8.9kWh of batteries that do 37 miles. So perhaps if they want PHEV's to count, then they'd need to put more effort into making them better rather than just piling in more battery capacity.

The problem is in the way people think, which is what puts people off BEV's too, "ooo 25 miles isn't a lot, its not worth plugging it in really" that sort of attitude. They think the travel further than they do most of the time, and don't realise they can run a car for 5 working days on 60 miles of range. Most people can't be bothered to do basic maths once they've left school, and asking them to work out their real mileage is seen as a massive chore, but they'll happily complain about the cost of fuel for 45 minutes to their colleagues etc.