EV general discussion

You are confusing want with reality. Blurring product sgements, attributes and even performance to fix the narrative you have already decided on.

A model Y SR pack is 501Kg, emotor 81kg

Performance model with NMC 461Kg Front motor 72Kg, rear 91Kg

To make a car weigh the same as an ICE other compromises, different engineering choices HAVE to be made.
 
blun said:
As I said can’t keep posting the same thing but

Model 3 RWD- 1760kg
3 series (330d RWD)- 1770kg
C-class 2.0d RWD - 1730kg
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That was not your argument. You argued wrongly that a ground up EV is lighter than an ICE. You can’t compare apples to oranges and call the banana a winner.

The drive train and battery pack of an EV is heavier than a full ICE drivetrain with fuel and oil added. Any weight saving that apply to the EV chassis can also apply to the ICE.
 
blun said:
Agree they will have silly amounts of range, then as people realise they don’t need it and can save loads of money with a smaller battery, standard range versions will make up the majority of sales with long range versions for the small number of people that really meet 500+ miles.
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This won't happen until the charging network is as ubiquitous & reliable as the petrol station network, but yes - agreed; when it gets to the point you can reliably charge whenever you stop for 15-30 mins for a toilet/coffee/lunch break then ~200 motorway miles is going to be enough for almost everyone.
 
blun said:
As I said can’t keep posting the same thing but

Model 3 RWD- 1760kg
3 series (330d RWD)- 1770kg
C-class 2.0d RWD - 1730kg

Kia EV6 - 1985kg
Model Y - 1909kg
BMW X3 - 1890kg
Volvo XC60 - 1835kg
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A 20kg dumbbell is 20kg and a 5kg bag of rice is 5kg but they take up the same space. But people want to eat rice


I think that’s similar logic to yours
 
ICDP said:
That was not your argument. You argued wrongly that a ground up EV is lighter than an ICE. You can’t compare apples to oranges and call the banana a winner.

The drive train and battery pack of an EV is heavier than a full ICE drivetrain with fuel and oil added. Any weight saving that apply to the EV chassis can also apply to the ICE.
Click to expand...

My original argument remains and is correct as shown by the real world weights. A ground up EV need be no heavier than an equivalent ICE. A dedicated EV platform enables weight saving that’s isn’t possible in an ICE vehicle.
 
blun said:
Just pick from the list above.. say Model 3 / BMW 3 (with similar performance)
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So a different premise than the one you made in your previous post?

OK I’ll bite.

3 Series 330i, 0-60 in 5.1 seconds. Kerb weight 1558kg (about 1600kg) with fuel.

Model 3 LR single motor, 0-60 in 5.2 seconds. Kerb weight 1825kg (lighter than the standard range).

3 series is ~250kg lighter. Hardly a large amount has been my argument, but still lighter.

The weight savings on an EV platform will not currently make up the penalty of the battery pack. When solid state becomes a thing we may see parity but that’s many years away at least.
 
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ICDP said:
So a different premise than the one you made in your previous post?

OK I’ll bite.

3 Series 330i, 0-60 in 5.1 seconds. Kerb weight 1558kg (about 1600kg) with fuel.

Model 3 LR single motor, 0-60 in 5.2 seconds. Kerb weight 1825kg (lighter than the standard range).

3 series is ~250kg lighter. Hardly a large amount has been my argument, but still lighter.

The weight savings on an EV platform will not currently make up the penalty of the battery pack. When solid state becomes a thing we may see parity but that’s many years away at least.
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How is it a different premise?

Fine to stack the deck that way .. much as we can do it the other way too:

340i XDrive - 1,745 kg
M3 LR - 1,828kg

Less than a light person’s weight between them.
 
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These comparisons would be infinitely more useful if they were actual like for like comparisons of near enough the same car on a manufacturers ICE vs EV platforms.

Comparing to Tesla is all very well but a Model 3 isn't built to the same standards of quality/luxury as a BMW/Merc is, they're not a genuine like for like comparison IMO. Whilst legions of company car drivers will be happy with them because the tax is cheap and they're faster than the 320d they used to have, you can't get away from the fact they're little more than a battery on wheels with a few seats and an iPad for an interior.
 
Kenai said:
These comparisons would be infinitely more useful if they were actual like for like comparisons of near enough the same car on a manufacturers ICE vs EV platforms.

Comparing to Tesla is all very well but a Model 3 isn't built to the same standards of quality/luxury as a BMW/Merc is, they're not a genuine like for like comparison IMO. Whilst legions of company car drivers will be happy with them because the tax is cheap and they're faster than the 320d they used to have, you can't get away from the fact they're little more than a battery on wheels with a few seats and an iPad for an interior.
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I4 vs M4 was ignored
 
blun said:
How is it a different premise?

Fine to stack the deck that way .. much as we can do it the other way too:

340i XDrive - 1,745 kg
M3 LR - 1,828kg

Less than a light person’s weight between them.
Click to expand...

It’s a different premise than your claim that a dedicated EV platform allows weight savings an ICE platform cannot. The best I have read to kinda prove this, is that the battery cells/pack can be used for structural rigidity in place of some parts of a steel frame. Though that adds its own problems because the cells and battery pack cannot be replaced if they fail. So not a viable solution for weight savings all things considered.

This is getting silly because I compared like for like RWD with identical performance. You cherry picked the RWD Model 3 and compared to an all wheel drive BMW. The AWD Model 3 is 1900kg compared to 1830kg in the RWD version. The BMW is built to higher standards with more interior parts than an extreme weight saving Model 3 with no indicator stalks.

Give it up. EVs are heavier than an EV, just not as much as the usual anti EV FUD makes out. Let’s not make our own FUD trying to counter their FUD.
 
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m4rmite said:
The Chinese ev version is 1420kg. So dunno what's been added
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The Westernised version has safety features added and built to higher standards. It is a myth that Chinese can’t match or get close to western build standards. They can when they have to if a cheap price point is not a mandatory requirement.
 
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Compared the AWD BMW to the AWD Tesla. Love the “built to higher standards” - I have owned both.. more buttons don’t mean better quality. They are comparable cars in the same segment at the same price point.
 
The solidity of a BMW, the road noise, NVH, steering feel and wandering on centre Tesla suffers from, seat support, row 2 comfort are much better in the BMW. If you can't notice those differences thats not the cars fault.

Rumour is the BMW suspension bushes dont fall apart after 70k aswell. Nor do the sills need repainting from excess stone pecking or the boot fill with water when you open the mutant hatch/decklid like a model 3.
 
blun said:
Compared the AWD BMW to the AWD Tesla. Love the “built to higher standards” - I have owned both.. more buttons don’t mean better quality. They are comparable cars in the same segment at the same price point.
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No you didn’t compare like for like. The AWD Model 3 is 1900kg and NOT 1830kg as you claimed. The 1830kg is for the SR+ RWD model. You compared an AWD BMW to an RWD Model 3. Even then it was still heavier. You are cherry picking your data and still losing the argument.

Here is like for like RWD with identical performance.

3 Series 330i, 0-60 in 5.1 seconds. Kerb weight 1558kg (about 1600kg with fuel).

Model 3 LR single motor, 0-60 in 5.2 seconds. Kerb weight 1825kg (note the LR is 5kg lighter than the SR)

The Model 3 is ~225kg + heavier. It’s not a lot in my opinion, but is is heavier because an EV battery pack weight is impossible to “design away” at current technology.
 
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