EV general discussion
- Thread starter Ricochet J
- Start date
Petrol is cheap, as are engines.
It is government that is expensive (Taxes on fuel, insistence on making engines far more complex than they need to be)
Petrol is cheap, as are engines.
It is government that is expensive (Taxes on fuel, insistence on making engines far more complex than they need to be)
Wrong. Oil is forever more difficult and therefore more expensive to get. Yes it might be 'cheap' now, but supply can only get more expensive over time. Energy generation CAN get cheaper over time.
Combustion engines CAN be cheap, but they're also pretty rubbish. I'd like to see someone make an ICE that can compete on power, torque and energy efficiency with an equivalent cost motor.
My point was, car manufacturers are able to make cars for a low cost and in large volumes because they used shared components and platforms and benefit from bigger economies of scale.
And if you want to be pedantic - I wrote manufacture a car for £10k, not sell it for that price.
Yes I see your point, but a lack of vertical integration is now harming them not helping them. Even though a BEV still has 4 wheels and a moves, it is done in such a way that what they currently have set up doesn't fit, and the massive re-tooling costs and getting to grips with building an entirely new product, that has less parts in common (until the range expands over the next 5+ years) and needs new software, and new considerations not just for the product but for the use of it, like charging and the charging infrastructure and software updates to make it competitive.
As for being pedantic, you chose to use the term 'the privileged few' with reference to mass manufacturing less expansive cars, inferring Tesla's are somehow way more expensive than the average 'new' car being bought is, which is not true, as illustrated by the ASP of £33.5k in 2019, and the TCO ends up being less than the majority of those other new cars.
What? Tesla have the most simple manufacturing process so far. Why do you think there are so few models/options? The whole car is designed for quick & simple manufacturing, did you see the Cybertruck? A typical car as 2km of wiring, the Model Y has 300m. They are using vertical integration everywhere they can to drive efficiencies, and it will keep working. I bet per unit capex on the gigafactory is one of the best out there.
What do car manufacturers even make this days?
The body, the engine (even that is often a joint venture) and then do final assembly.
Pretty much everything else is outsourced, Jag even outsourced the assembly of their iPace.
I expect them having to outsource battery supply, motors and control software is killing their margins on EVs.
EDIT: That said, Tesla can move quickly because they don’t make that many cars and they don’t have a huge amount of assets they need to get a return on. While existing manufacturers get economies of scale, they also get diseconomies of scale, things like innovation and changing strategy become much harder the bigger you are and the longer you have been doing it.
The body, the engine (even that is often a joint venture) and then do final assembly.
Pretty much everything else is outsourced, Jag even outsourced the assembly of their iPace.
I expect them having to outsource battery supply, motors and control software is killing their margins on EVs.
EDIT: That said, Tesla can move quickly because they don’t make that many cars and they don’t have a huge amount of assets they need to get a return on. While existing manufacturers get economies of scale, they also get diseconomies of scale, things like innovation and changing strategy become much harder the bigger you are and the longer you have been doing it.
How much do you know about the car industry ? Because this is completely missing bug ones point
Been to Gallagher Retail Park at Wednesbury today. Quite surprised to see there are now 8x 22kW AC chargers (PodPoint) and a new triple head rapid (Engenie) alongside the existing Ecotricity install.
Good to see some progress being made.
On the Tesla front, I'd agree there is some way to go yet. They're a long, long way ahead of BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar, etc. But they haven't shown any interest in moving out of that market yet. Until they do, it's difficult to argue that they're such a big threat to the likes of Renault, Nissan, PSA, etc.
Good to see some progress being made.
On the Tesla front, I'd agree there is some way to go yet. They're a long, long way ahead of BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar, etc. But they haven't shown any interest in moving out of that market yet. Until they do, it's difficult to argue that they're such a big threat to the likes of Renault, Nissan, PSA, etc.
Here's a nice write up on what can be done with 'stuff' that already exists, and a bit of creativity.
https://octopus.energy/blog/energy-stats-uk/
https://octopus.energy/blog/energy-stats-uk/
It looks like an XF that ate all the pies.
I don't know what has happened to Jaguar's design department. The new F-type is ugly too. It's one of those rare moments where the car looks WORSE in real life, the front end is just all wrong :/
Soldato
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Callum retired! That’s what.... although these are his legacy designs.
you’ll like Julian more, he did the mk1 Elise afterall!
Yeah, I don't get it. The older f type was a beautiful thing. It's like the design department received a new brief or was utterly replaced with a bunch of cataract ridden chimps.
American safety requirements are odd. One says the car has to be a certain width O_o
Which is probably why manufacturers are now making cars which are really to big for OUR roads.
The Tesla model Y already can't fit through some of our width restrictions (on old bridges etc) lol
Which is probably why manufacturers are now making cars which are really to big for OUR roads.
The Tesla model Y already can't fit through some of our width restrictions (on old bridges etc) lol
Out of interest, where are all the < £10k ICE cars? Outside of Dacia (cheap and nasty!) and tiny boxy "city cars" e.g. Aygo etc. (not really suitable if you have kids), then these don't exist either. How much does something like a Fiesta cost to manufacture?
Bear in mind even the "base spec" Teslas are pretty luxury oriented in terms of spec level & gadgets (as are most EVs TBH, even the Zoe comes with plenty of gadgets as standard)
Well, ignoring Dacia, according to CarWow;
A Corsa can be had for £9,475
Seat Ibiza from £10,165
Nissan Note from £10,145
Fiat Punto from £10,330
Ka+ from £9,805
You'll be looking at the base spec of cars you may not consider particularly desirable - but my point is - these manufacturers are able to sell these cars for such a low price and still make some profit because they use shared platforms and components.