Soldato
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Let’s not go down the hydrogen road. It’s got yellow brick vibes…
EV general discussion
- Thread starter Ricochet J
- Start date
It’s a good time in the thread for a reminder though. No car company expects to sell hydrogen powered vehicles. They aren’t daft - they just need a predatory delay tactic. If they sow enough doubt that there is something new around the corner to make people “just buy one more hybrid” they can string the transition out for as long as possible.
It’s not the car companies that are the problem. A lot of them had planned to go pure EV because it makes no difference what kind of car they sell if the public buy them.
The problem was the end of subsidies and incentives to keep the move towards pure BEV on track.
The car companies don’t *need* subsidies.. they just want them. They need to stop charging 30% more for something that doesn’t cost 30% more to make.
For example, the BEV Fiat 500 costs about £2k more to make, but Fiat charge 8k more for it, then complain they aren’t selling enough.
For example, the BEV Fiat 500 costs about £2k more to make, but Fiat charge 8k more for it, then complain they aren’t selling enough.
The subsidies were not for the car companies, they were for the customers. If you stop incentivising and don’t clarify policy, the car companies stop investing and people stop buying. It’s more nuanced than car companies being greedy.
Bonus points for the Wii Plaza music though.
Whether it goes via the customer or directly to the car manufacturer - they get it in the end..
Using the Fiat example still -
Fiat could price the ICE at £17k and the BEV at £19k - they'd make the same profit on both.
However they choose to price the BEV at £25k then complain there's "no demand".
A government incentive of £6k would make the BEV appear to cost £19k to the customer (increasing demand) - but Fiat would be pocketing the massive extra profit on the BEV.
The customer is no better off than if Fiat just priced it fairly to begin with.
don't want to subsidize/incentivize foreign cars (like Biden doesn't) otherwise you are just sending money abroad w/trade-imbalance,
maybe we/UK could do that for EU mftrd cars with appropriate post-brexit reciprocal agreement, or, just give us cheap jags&nissans ?
chinese mftrs also cross-subsidising domestic sales with large margins on the exported cars too, further justification for eu style penalty import duties which can be used to subsidise domestic infrastructure.
maybe we/UK could do that for EU mftrd cars with appropriate post-brexit reciprocal agreement, or, just give us cheap jags&nissans ?
chinese mftrs also cross-subsidising domestic sales with large margins on the exported cars too, further justification for eu style penalty import duties which can be used to subsidise domestic infrastructure.
Soldato
- Joined
- 19 Oct 2002
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I think the material Cost delta is somewhat of an underestimate
I am wondering how someone can know the BOM for both
Is this something they have said publicly?
Deleted User 298457
Deleted User 298457
Yep. Also assumes manufacturing is like Civ5 where you can just "up production of EV" and "reduce ICE" with a few mouse clicks. Real world supply chain is tricky!
Yes it’s more complex than the example but this has been on the cards for years and the incumbent manufacturers have intentionally stuck their heads in the sand. Now they are paying the price with sensible priced cars from new entrants to the market taking their business.
Purposely overpricing EVs, or in the case of companies like Toyota: purposely making a terrible EV and spinning stories about hydrogen to sell more petrol hybrids, it’s hard to have sympathy.
Purposely overpricing EVs, or in the case of companies like Toyota: purposely making a terrible EV and spinning stories about hydrogen to sell more petrol hybrids, it’s hard to have sympathy.
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Deleted User 298457
Deleted User 298457
I'm not sure what you'd propose? JLR seemed somewhat on the money to outsource EV; switch over production --- then for some reason they yeeted that plan and stopped making anything lol.
The ICE cars are still a large portion of expensed R&D, revenues, future profits (servicing), etc...
For sure the manufacturers callously over priced things. But those aren't simply sensible priced cars they are competing with. It's a state subsidised car industry. There are wider implications in play.
It’s a difficult challenge.
China have subsidised their domestic EV industry through many different methods which has now made them the biggest player in the world.
The USA have subsidised their EV industry where tax credits were offered only for vehicles made mainly in the USA.
But in the UK we only have a modest vehicle manufacturing industry, and nearly all of it is owned by companies outside of the UK. If subsidies were offered only to vehicles made in the UK that wouldn’t give much choice to consumers!
I guess the government need to determine which subsidies to give and who to give them to for the largest benefit both in speeding up the transition to EVs industry the UK whilst also benefiting the UK in as many other areas as possible.
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This is not just about the UK, that's quite a myopic view point. But if China manages to control the car industry, it's all the parts, all the trade that comes from that, they can also cut it off in times of conflict. They would use it as economic weapon.
We've just seen the mistake made by Germany getting reliant on Russian Gas. This is variation of that.
There's is a reason there is a scramble to get mining key materials out of China and the manufacture of chips and such. The west is using Chinese cheap labour as a crutch. That crutch can be taken away. The Chinese are building a massive navy to protect their lines of supply around the world.
It maybe nothing. But I wouldn't be in rush to hand over an entire industry, jobs, and associated industry, that in UK theses a massive industry in supporting automotive trade.
This goes far beyond simply incentivising people to use EVs. People are only waking up to what's happening.
We've just seen the mistake made by Germany getting reliant on Russian Gas. This is variation of that.
There's is a reason there is a scramble to get mining key materials out of China and the manufacture of chips and such. The west is using Chinese cheap labour as a crutch. That crutch can be taken away. The Chinese are building a massive navy to protect their lines of supply around the world.
It maybe nothing. But I wouldn't be in rush to hand over an entire industry, jobs, and associated industry, that in UK theses a massive industry in supporting automotive trade.
This goes far beyond simply incentivising people to use EVs. People are only waking up to what's happening.
So why don't the west set up their own supply chains, ahh yes, because it's cheaper to use Chinese.
More profit in their pockets