EV general discussion

[ICDP]

I'm not ignoring running costs, if an equivalent EV costs ~£140 or more then that will pay for the running costs for most people. So in the end the monthly costs including fuel and tax are very similar between ICE vs EV we assume a Hyundai Kona lease pricing

3 year lease, 15,000 miles, no servicing plan, 3 months down payment.

Kona EV short range version monthly costs (not including outlay for charging point): ~£380
Kona ICE basic edition monthly costs: ~£240

So removing or equalising the financial costs, the problem with convincing a person looking for a family car that the EV version is viable are.

Range
Infrastructure
Cost of a charging point at home if viable

So take an average person, give them these facts and unfortunately the majority are opting for what they know. This is provable by virtue of the fact that EV adoption in the UK is still regretfully low.

 

[Journey]

Surely if you don't do many miles fuel costs are not particularly large but if you do a lot of miles fuel costs become a big issue but then so too does range?

How does that work, assuming that if you are doing lots of miles a shorter range becomes bothersome? Are you saying that people who only do lots of miles always do lots of miles in one go, they couldn't possibly be doing lots of shorter trips. What do you count as a lot of miles?

If you did 120 miles per day, that is 43k+ miles per year. If you commute a long distance 40+ miles, or do rounds in a car e.g. a care worker who racks up big mileage driving around (I know people who do this personally), or if you just have a busy schedule, I know a lady who is a blind sales person/fitter and she might have 10 appointments per day (or did until covid), and would do easily 80 miles per day dodging around the west midlands, so at least 20k per year not including weekends or holidays.

You just put out a blanket statement, when we already know if you are a sale rep who racks up 50,000 miles driving up and down a motorway daily isn't going to be better off time wise , but you just miss out all of the other use case examples t ofit your narrative of them being expensive, slow to charge, and not suitalbe for people with only one car. Not everyone is YOU!

 

[Haggisman]

I'm not ignoring running costs, if an equivalent EV costs ~£150 or more then that will pay for the running costs for most people. So in the end the monthly costs including fuel and tax are very similar between ICE vs EV we assume a Hyundai Kona lease pricing.

So removing or equalising the financial costs, the problem with convincing a person looking for a family car that the EV version is viable are.

Range
Infrastructure
Cost of a charging point at home if viable

So take an average person, give them these facts and unfortunately the majority are opting for what they know. This is provable by virtue of the fact that EV adoption in the UK is still regretfully low.

Charging points are often provided free by the manufacturer (if buying new - not sure about leasing?), but otherwise, yes I agree completely. In some cases balanced out by the driving experiencing and convenience of charging, but that's down to the individual.

Edit: watched the video linked a few posts back, and agree with all of it. If there was a PHEV with 50+ miles range within my budget I'd have that rather than the Zoe, but unfortunately the 30-40 miles most of them seem to have is (only just) too low for my daily usage :/

 

[Journey]

Cost of a charging point at home if viable

Cost of a charging point that will be there forever? God forbid they need a new fridge, washing machine, or tyres changed on their car. Or have to pay excess out for an accident... you get the drift, a charger is an appliance. It is in no way a barrier to entry for getting an EV unless you are utterly broke then why the hell are you buying/renting an expensive car in the first place, utter tosh.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Interesting, i watched until he got into the details of the plug in.
So he said massive win from the home charging, as expected
They fall down on longer journeys due to range and problems with charging, EXCEPT Tesla, again expected

So what do we learn?
We learn that the issue isn't the tech really. (everyone could just copy Tesla as a minimum) we are back to the chicken and egg situation of the infrastructure.

We really need our government to start setting goals, eg 1 charger per x Ev on each service station.

I must admit i do get annoyed driving along the new A14, it was a big project and yet it seems no thought was put into it. Why didnt they for example put charging in all the brand new laybys. imagine like having a petrol station every few miles.

Its just a lack of thought and commitment that grinds my gears with our infrastructure

 

[ICDP]

I haven't seen this posted in the this thread, Harry Metcalfe posted a video on ditching his I-Pace for a X5 45e and explained why the electric car didn't work for him and why he thinks in the short term electric hybrids are the way to go.

After running a E-Tron for a month I agree with him, I'm going to try and borrow a Model 3 to see how I get on with that.

Can I ask if the E-Tron is your only family car? I will be honest, I love the E-Tron 50 and the price I got it for is amazing but if it was our only family car I would have doubts with the mediocre range and poor infrastructure here in N.I.

 

[ICDP]

Cost of a charging point that will be there forever? God forbid they need a new fridge, washing machine, or tyres changed on their car. Or have to pay excess out for an accident... you get the drift, a charger is an appliance. It is in no way a barrier to entry for getting an EV unless you are utterly broke then why the hell are you buying/renting an expensive car in the first place, utter tosh.

Can I ask you to debate the other points I made or are they also not a barrier? You should also note the "if viable" part because not everyone has access to off-street parking. Hence why it was listed as a potential issue.

You can't ignore that it is still part of the initial outlay as it was not included in the lease deals I looked at. I get it you're an EV convert but to call it tosh that some people are on a budget is showing a lack of understanding that not everyone is like you. It's extremely arrogant to tell someone they shouldn't be considering "expensive cars" if they can't afford a charger. It's £450 and is as such part of the costs.

My entire premise is how are the car companies, government and utility companies going to entice more people to EV. Right now it's painfully slow progress and the choices the government is making are counterproductive.

 

[Simon]

Cost of a charging point that will be there forever? God forbid they need a new fridge, washing machine, or tyres changed on their car. Or have to pay excess out for an accident... you get the drift, a charger is an appliance. It is in no way a barrier to entry for getting an EV unless you are utterly broke then why the hell are you buying/renting an expensive car in the first place, utter tosh.

If you have to pay £1000 to install a charger to get a £1000 fuel saving over 2 years then it is a barrier!

Plus if you move house you can take a fridge with you. No idea why you have used tyres though, they are a consumable (probably at a higher rate on a EV too)

You do come across with the EV smugness that ICDP has mentioned. He also puts across some nice points from real experience but is still getting shot down?!

 

[ICDP]

Interesting, i watched until he got into the details of the plug in.
So he said massive win from the home charging, as expected
They fall down on longer journeys due to range and problems with charging, EXCEPT Tesla, again expected

So what do we learn?
We learn that the issue isn't the tech really. (everyone could just copy Tesla as a minimum) we are back to the chicken and egg situation of the infrastructure.

We really need our government to start setting goals, eg 1 charger per x Ev on each service station.

I must admit i do get annoyed driving along the new A14, it was a big project and yet it seems no thought was put into it. Why didnt they for example put charging in all the brand new laybys. imagine like having a petrol station every few miles.

Its just a lack of thought and commitment that grinds my gears with our infrastructure

EV choices, tech and prices are slowly improving, so that will eventually become a non-issue for converting to EV.
It's the choices the Governments are making that will define if EV actually succeeds. Though as you pointed out it is clear they haven't a clue.

 

[Dangerous Dave]

Can I ask if the E-Tron is your only family car? I will be honest, I love the E-Tron 50 and the price I got it for is amazing but if it was our only family car I doubt I would have doubts with the mediocre range and poor infrastructure here in N.I.

I borrowed it from a work colleague as we are all working from home he wasn't using it, it's a company car so he is happy for other people to borrow it when he has no use for it. I'll hopefully be borrowing the Model 3 from another colleague.

An E-Tron wouldn't work for me the range is too low a simple 110 mile trip each way on a holiday was a right pain.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

EV choices, tech and prices are slowly improving, so that will eventually become a non-issue for converting to EV.
It's the choices the Governments are making that will define if EV actually succeeds. Though as you pointed out it is clear they haven't a clue.

Yeah I think as the mainstream manufacturers move into the market we will see some proper progress in regards choice. Tesla did what many said you couldnt and proved it could work for a reasonable price point. I use the term reasonable quite loosely here

There for sure will be some changes happening. The likes of Audi, Ford etc have to adapt. They dont want overnight change, but equally they dont want to allow a good competitor to get too far ahead, they will for sure include Tesla in that category now, as well as their historic rivals.
One of the things I hope we would see is more range of KWH solutions. Plenty of people dont need massive ranges, and real world 200 miles should be enough for most people, and I cant stress this next point enough, once there damn infrastructure is in place. Get that damn infrastructure being built ffs government

 

[Dangerous Dave]

Interesting, i watched until he got into the details of the plug in.
So he said massive win from the home charging, as expected
They fall down on longer journeys due to range and problems with charging, EXCEPT Tesla, again expected

So what do we learn?
We learn that the issue isn't the tech really. (everyone could just copy Tesla as a minimum) we are back to the chicken and egg situation of the infrastructure.

We really need our government to start setting goals, eg 1 charger per x Ev on each service station.

I must admit i do get annoyed driving along the new A14, it was a big project and yet it seems no thought was put into it. Why didnt they for example put charging in all the brand new laybys. imagine like having a petrol station every few miles.

Its just a lack of thought and commitment that grinds my gears with our infrastructure

You should watch the whole video he goes into more thoughts/details how he thinks the government shouldn't be giving grants on electric cars and should be concentrating on infrastructure first etc. He makes some very good points the X5 also sounds like a great EV Hybrid he's managing over 50% of his time on electric only.

 

[Haggisman]

One of the things I hope we would see is more range of KWH solutions. Plenty of people dont need massive ranges, and real world 200 miles should be enough for most people, and I cant stress this next point enough, once there damn infrastructure is in place. Get that damn infrastructure being built ffs government

Yup, real world 200 miles (~50kwh battery) + reliable 100kw charging (e.g. a full charge in ~30-40 mins) I think is going to be the sweet spot. Lets face it, most people are going to want a toilet & snack break after 200 miles/3-4 hours of driving anyway.

 

[jpaul]

So what do we learn?

I learned, that with a phev, if you can save those electric miles for where it counts most on a trip that would be useful ... so the inner cambridge stuff (following the a14 theme)

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

You should watch the whole video he goes into more thoughts/details how he thinks the government shouldn't be giving grants on electric cars and should be concentrating on infrastructure first etc. He makes some very good points the X5 also sounds like a great EV Hybrid he's managing over 50% of his time on electric only.

Yeah i will watch the whole thing, I just find he takes twice as long as needed on most subjects and need to watch him in smaller chunks to keep my sanity

Yup, real world 200 miles (~50kwh battery) + reliable 100kw charging (e.g. a full charge in ~30-40 mins) I think is going to be the sweet spot. Lets face it, most people are going to want a toilet & snack break after 200 miles/3-4 hours of driving anyway.

I agree this is definately the sort of area the majority would handle. I am sure some people used to regularly driving more than 200 miles will say no, my other half will regularly drive more than 200 miles each way on a trip in a day, so for her it will be an impact. But for the vast vast majority who either dont do that sort of journey those sorts of point are going to be the sweet spot.

Interesting point on the grants, hes probably right, I think there is enough momentum now that the bigger barrier is infrastructure, not the price of the vehicles.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

The government did provide loads of funding for charge points but it just wasn't very well targeted/utilised. Some councils took up the offer and provided infrastructure for taxi drivers (London, Nottingham) which is a really good use of the money but most councils ignored it. Scotland have provided loads of chargers and the infrastructure is actually pretty good. Glasgow for example has a few charging hubs set up in the city already.

 

[ICDP]

I borrowed it from a work colleague as we are all working from home he wasn't using it, it's a company car so he is happy for other people to borrow it when he has no use for it. I'll hopefully be borrowing the Model 3 from another colleague.

An E-Tron wouldn't work for me the range is too low a simple 110 mile trip each way on a holiday was a right pain.

Yeah I can see why it would be a proper turn off for most. This is the point I am trying to get across, most ICE drivers would see having 100 - 150 miles of range as a major issue, or stopping 2, 3 or 4 times on a longer trip is seen as laughable we would even ask them to contemplate it. For some of the EV converts they can't get their head around the fact most do not accept their sanctimonious hand waving "it's no big deal to me, clearly EVs aren't for you". I find people want a viable EV that meets their needs, so they can do their bit for the planet. What they cannot accept is the poor state of the infrastructure. They look at the price of a Leaf or Zoe EV and think "I can get a decent SUV/MPV family car for that price and don't have to live with the low level stress".

I'm far more interested in how we fix these barriers so we can get more people moving over to EV. Pretending they aren't barriers or issues to most is clearly ignoring the fact the adoption rate for EVs is horrible. To be fair prices and ranged (tech) is improving al the time. Tesla and Nissan showed EVs were viable and now mainstream manufacturers are getting onboard and that is a good thing.

The biggest barrier is how we implement the infrastructure.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

I learned, that with a phev, if you can save those electric miles for where it counts most on a trip that would be useful ... so the inner cambridge stuff (following the a14 theme)

Yeah agree.
We have PHEvs at work but ironically they are in the hands of high mileage drivers who would be better suited by a standard ICE.
Apart from one who has the BMW (330e?) and who mainly does his journeys on battery. His commute is just under 20 miles each way, and its range is something like 23miles. The last time i spoke to him he said it was rare to not use any petrol, but he had done something like 6 months on less than a tank for those journeys. When he did his longer journeys its just a slightly heavier petrol car.

I think PHEV would and still could be a far better transition for most. I mean plugin though.

For me if I could buy a 60-80 mile ev range PHEV I could do most of my journeys on electric. Charging at home is a pain for me, I park on the street, and our dedicated parking and garage do not have power. There is power right there but its not for us, its powering the (in effect shared) lighting etc. I can however charge at work so my daily 40 miles could be refilled at work. The odd time I do longer journeys I would happily cruise at 80, so a 1 litre petrol would probably be enough if it was being clever with using the Ev as a boost. I believe on most PHEVs the Ev boost is only up until a certain speed, something like 70mph

 

[ICDP]

The government did provide loads of funding for charge points but it just wasn't very well targeted/utilised. Some councils took up the offer and provided infrastructure for taxi drivers (London, Nottingham) which is a really good use of the money but most councils ignored it. Scotland have provided loads of chargers and the infrastructure is actually pretty good. Glasgow for example has a few charging hubs set up in the city already.

I have heard good things about the charging infrastructure in Scotland. But has it helped adoption rate up there? I have only ever seen numbers for all UK.

 

[b0rn2sk8]

I think PHEV would and still could be a far better transition for most. I mean plugin though.

That's what's annoying about GM killing the Volt, it was a great little car with a fantastic drive train that would have helped the transition. Same goes for the BMW i8, great drive train which could have been toned down a bit and put in a normal car.

That said the only two manufacturers to offer a 'proper' PHEV have killed them off so I expect they know something we don't. I expect it was ultimately due to cost and packaging issues of the vehicles.

I have heard good things about the charging infrastructure in Scotland. But has it helped adoption rate up there? I have only ever seen numbers for all UK.

No idea on the adoption rate I'm afraid, all I know is the infrastructure is currently plentiful, reliable and free to use.