EV general discussion

Journey said:
It's more like the smartphone vs. feature phone argument TBH. ;)

If you take your comparison, some early adopters were willing to get on board with the original iPhone or various Android phone(s), and others were happy to stick with the long trusted Nokia that had a week of battery life, and made calls, and completed SMS. Why would they need more, why would they want worse battery life etc.
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I wasn't going to go that route because some people may consider that as meaning BEVs and ICE are two very different products, rather than a change in the drivetrain. :p

But for that example, the original iPhone didn't have 3G, didn't send picture messages, didn't have the "ecosystem" and was by and large worse as a phone (or camera) than the feature phones of the same era. Some people could overlook that because they were more interested in the wifi internet browsing, but many others couldn't. That's the point I'm making.

The latest electric vehicles are now at the iPhone 3G phase for a lot of people. Better, but still a compromise for a lot of people, especially when they cost a significant amount more than the phone they had.

Now, if you were a Nokia smartphone user, used to spending £500 on a phone, or it was paid for by work, and used as a work tool then sure, the iPhone 3G may have been a good option for you (this being the Model 3 vs the BMW saloon analogy).

Next generation of electric vehicles (available in the next year or two) will be like the iPhone 4/5 and the later Android models and sales will take off. Hopefully the iD.3 and 4, along with others from other manufacturers will be those vehicles.
 
Nasher said:
More like a beta tester.
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In most countries BEV's are at the innovator market share.
 
pioneer ? ... when the railroad has been built we'll come out and join you ... the ID3 's design/versatility will, I think, make it a car for the people.

with respect to the phone analogy .. if you don't need social media and associated apps, the original nokia Nokia N series still have competitive music/cameras/battery-life, and get you from A to B.


Do we know why Dyson chickened out of ev's , I'm waiting for a vacuum from him too, that fits my lifestyle.
 
Amp34 said:
I wasn't going to go that route because some people may consider that as meaning BEVs and ICE are two very different products, rather than a change in the drivetrain. :p
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As you pointed out it is more than that since you have to consider, the cost, the ability and convenience to charge/fuel, and the future compatibility/residual value. If it was just a drivetrain change it will be way more simple for most people to accept and get on board with.

There is a great deal of misinformation out there against changing to a BEV, especially those of us lucky enough to have off road parking and only completing the average UK mileage of around 8k miles per year, with a majority of those journeys being less than 20 miles. The marketing forces from incumbent manufacturers and oil companies are clearly trying to slow adoption down so they have a chance to have some market share vs. those that are new, look at how well that worked out for Nokia. :)
 
Amp34 said:
That's just as blinkered a view as those of people like Nasher.

If you own an electric car right now you're an "innovator". It very much means you're a subsection of society that are either willing to compromise to test out a new technology, or it fits your lifestyle so well that it feels like it's better.

Not everyone has the same lifestyle and practices. Yes, there are some naysayers, but there are also a lot of people where an EV would be more impractical than an ICE. Claiming it's just a simple divide between people that have and have not completely ignores the nuances of why people have and have not.

It's basically the IOS/Android debate all over again.

There's still a lot more work needed (both charging and infrastructure and vehicles) before electric vehicles work for most/all people. Just as the original iPhone was a bit ****, but each iteration and update made it better and better, hitting more and more people's benchmarks for a phone they want.
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I was by no means trying to suggest that EVs are suitable for all people in all situations. I said in the post you quoted: "I agree that public infrastructure needs improving before proper expansion of electric vehicles is possible and it's certainly better in some regions than others." I also agree that they aren't going to be a direct replacement for ICE vehicles for all people. At least, not yet.

However; far too many people are making excuses (and most of the time poor ones) for not wanting to adopt an EV. I've already converted a fair few people (friends, colleagues and members of the public) just by speaking with them about how easy they are to live with. There is an incredible amount of ignorance surrounding EVs and there are many people who just need a little push and a little education to plump for one. Of course there are some who won't and have legitimate reasons for not.
 
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Journey said:
As you pointed out it is more than that since you have to consider, the cost, the ability and convenience to charge/fuel, and the future compatibility/residual value. If it was just a drivetrain change it will be way more simple for most people to accept and get on board with.

There is a great deal of misinformation out there against changing to a BEV, especially those of us lucky enough to have off road parking and only completing the average UK mileage of around 8k miles per year, with a majority of those journeys being less than 20 miles. The marketing forces from incumbent manufacturers and oil companies are clearly trying to slow adoption down so they have a chance to have some market share vs. those that are new, look at how well that worked out for Nokia. :)
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Everything on that list is due to the drivetrain however.

Cost is almost entirely due to the development of the drivetrain and the cost of batteries. (Remember when diesels were a lot more expensive than petrol, and sometimes still are)
Ability to charge/infrastructure/plug compatibility is drive train related again - Imagine if diesel was only available in a couple of fuel stations, you'd have the same issue. A Diesel engine wasn't considered a reinvention of the car was it? Same goes with LPG and Propane powered vehicles, the latter especially, the lack of infrastructure would make it a nightmare for consumers to use everyday and they would face the same resistance as BEV's today.

People are confusing the additional tech Tesla (predominantly, because it's seen as the electric car maker) put in their cars with the drivetrain changes of an electrified car. Autonomous driving, continuous updates, big centre screen, car design* etc are seen as integral to electric vehicles but they're not. They run in parallel to the main change (the electric drivetrain) and can all be integrated into ICE cars as well.

In part I suspect people see electric cars as "futuristic" so perhaps consider that they should have autonomous driving, big screens and aerodynamic looks to complete the "package", whereas that feeling isn't the same for an ICE car.

*The look is a large part to the compromise made to aerodynamics to allow for range. This is no different for an ICE however, except the aerodynamics aren't as important on an ICE due to the relative ineffieiency of the drivetrain and the ease of refuelling/adding additional range. Aerodynamics just aren't considered as important by most ICE car manufacturers.

Essentially the electric drivetrain isn't a "reinvention" of the wheel. It's the electric drivetrain in tandem with multiple other technologies coming on stream at around the same time that is "reinventing" the car.

Personally, rather than electric drivetrains, the biggest change in the future of cars is automation and the potential societal changes due to this.
 
Model S/X are old tech now so a better comparison would be the Model 3 with the track mode on the performance model specifically. Certainly watching Tesla Driver going round Castle Combe repeatedly for more than 30 mins at a time tells me it's a very capable track. Even though it does look a lot more restrained by the traction systems compared to a typical highly modded ICE car. Sound is a personal thing I don't actually miss it that much in my Model 3 due to the speed of the car as I'm more interested in driving safely on the road :)

I can't remember the reference but it may have been a Fully Charged interview with an Formula E drive but said drivers quickly adjusted from using the engine noise for driving references to more of the tyre and chassis feedback. By all means drive a screaming V8 ICE car but I'm finding it more and more difficult to get my car passed through noise regs especially on track. On the road it also is becoming "socially unacceptable" to drive a loud car and as I get older I'm not so interested in getting my self noticed.

Recently one of my neighbours 4x4s was I suspect impounded or at least removed from the public highways after from complaints as it had a very extreme yank diesel V8/10 with next to no silencing. I've certainly not seen it recently after the police paid a visit and they do leave the area a lot more quietly in the morning in their other modded cars.

As mentioned the Porsche Taycan has been designed with repeat ability in mind and will definitely give some other super-cars a wake up call.

Still waiting on the Tesla Roadster hopefully with a supplementary ultra capacitor bank. I'm fairly sure that will be the next step in extracting even more power and longevity in batteries. Bigger battery packs absorb the abuse better so offset that with capacitors and you can also reduce the battery pack size hopefully.
 
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jpaul said:
Do we know why Dyson chickened out of ev's , I'm waiting for a vacuum from him too, that fits my lifestyle.
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He finally realised the project was going to bankrupt him?

There have been plenty of start-ups showing off innovative EV designs. Very few make it past prototyping because of the cost and complexity of manufacturing cars (sans drive train). The only one that has made it to scale is Tesla, who have managed it through a combination of burning countless billions of dollars, and blind luck.

It was inevitable that Dyson's EV project would be scrapped. The only real question was how much money James Dyson was willing to burn before accepting that the car market is too difficult to get in to.
 
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Aparantly the government is going ahead with green number plates for EVs. They say it will help councils make local perks for EV drivers and encourage people to buy EVs.

Personally I think it’s a waste of time and just pushing vague undefined promises down to councils who are unlikely do actually do anything. No one is going to buy an because they have a green number plate.

Any thought on this?
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
Aparantly the government is going ahead with green number plates for EVs. They say it will help councils make local perks for EV drivers and encourage people to buy EVs.

Personally I think it’s a waste of time and just pushing vague undefined promises down to councils who are unlikely do actually do anything. No one is going to buy an because they have a green number plate.

Any thought on this?
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That would put me off having an EV, really dumb idea you would stand out like a sore thumb.
 
Id stick one my petrol car for cheaper parking. Maybe hide the exhaust tips and get some "E" badges lol. Most traffic wardens arent clued up enough to know the difference.
 
Ranger07 said:
That would put me off having an EV, really dumb idea you would stand out like a sore thumb.
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Sounds quite good to me. Imagine if you can beat the queues, places like cambridge cruising down the bus lane, jumping the queues, yeah could handle that
You would feel the hate of those sitting in the queues.

Although I agree its a good idea, but without some sort of national consistency you could have town 1 doing this and town 2 10 miles down the road, where you visit take the same approach only to get a ticket when you find out they have a different policy.
 
Bizarre idea, but for some reason in Britain we're weirdly obsessed with number plates as a sort of status symbol for showing that you've got a brand new car, so I suppose having green plates adds to that.

Somewhat flies in the face of the efforts by various car manufacturers to make their latest EV models less conspicuous alongside their ICE equivalents though.
 
Nasher said:
Id stick one my petrol car for cheaper parking. Maybe hide the exhaust tips and get some "E" badges lol. Most traffic wardens arent clued up enough to know the difference.
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Indeed not, but I know this is a massive stretch, imagine if the traffic warden could just do something like scan the car and see if its electric.

There are a few clues for budding sherlock level traffic wardens. EV charging point, exhausts etc

Imagine, BMW 3 series sitting with green plates, no badge, no obvious exhaust, traffic warden, hmm i think this is a bit suss, scans plate to DVLA, comes back 330D. Yep ticket it.
Really far fetched I know ;)

Oh see you completely changed you post as I replied, points still stand though, I guess even you saw the obvious flaws in your original post.
 
b0rn2sk8 said:
Aparantly the government is going ahead with green number plates for EVs. They say it will help councils make local perks for EV drivers and encourage people to buy EVs.

Personally I think it’s a waste of time and just pushing vague undefined promises down to councils who are unlikely do actually do anything. No one is going to buy an because they have a green number plate.

Any thought on this?
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I suppose it would be a bit like taxis are able to use the bus lanes etc. This would allow a physical indication that the car is allowed, even though electronically the number plate would already be captured by ANPR and compared against the database of allowed vehicles.

I like how Milton Keynes council have special benefits such as free parking if you are an EV driver and parked in a charging bay, there are lots more incentives that could be put in place not needing a green plate for the most part, but a visual indicator.
 
Mercenary Keyboard Warrior said:
Indeed not, but I know this is a massive stretch, imagine if the traffic warden could just do something like scan the car and see if its electric.

There are a few clues for budding sherlock level traffic wardens. EV charging point, exhausts etc

Imagine, BMW 3 series sitting with green plates, no badge, no obvious exhaust, traffic warden, hmm i think this is a bit suss, scans plate to DVLA, comes back 330D. Yep ticket it.
Really far fetched I know ;)

Oh see you completely changed you post as I replied, points still stand though, I guess even you saw the obvious flaws inyour original post.
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They only check if the ticket is expired or not there. They dont investigate every car. If the model also has an EV version it would be easy to fool people.
 
And if it had no ticket and a green plate they would run the reg to see if it was an EV, and if you got caught out I'm pretty sure the police would be informed as you'd be committing fraud, and probably some form of driving offence which would mean points/ban/fine.
 
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