EV general discussion
- Thread starter Ricochet J
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I have to say the build quality on my new Tesla Highland is very good. Much better than the previous versions.
Soldato
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Still a noisy car with floorpans that go ping as the battery warms and oilcans the sheetmetal!
Man of Honour
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It's not for me but I can see what they are trying to achieve with it. Is it me or is the dash really high and impairing the close up forward view?
Absolutely not trolling and I abhor anyone that does. I also dislike using Tesla as an example, as I know some people hate them for various reasons, but they are a good example of a purpose built premium EV in the most popular segments.
Let's just post these weight ranges from competing models so people stop picking best and worst cases to prove their points.
BMW 3 series weight range - 1590-1970kg
Mercedes C class weight range - 1665-2190kg
Tesla Model 3 weight range - 1765-1851kg
BMW X3 weight range - 1930-2140kg
Audi Q5 weight range - 1760-2075kg
Mercedes GLC - 2000-2590kg
Volvo XC60 - 1915 to 2163 kg
Tesla Model Y weight range - 1909-1995kg
Hopefully that puts this to bed and everyone can see that you can find a combustion car that's lighter or heavier than an equivalent purpose built EV.
Let's just post these weight ranges from competing models so people stop picking best and worst cases to prove their points.
BMW 3 series weight range - 1590-1970kg
Mercedes C class weight range - 1665-2190kg
Tesla Model 3 weight range - 1765-1851kg
BMW X3 weight range - 1930-2140kg
Audi Q5 weight range - 1760-2075kg
Mercedes GLC - 2000-2590kg
Volvo XC60 - 1915 to 2163 kg
Tesla Model Y weight range - 1909-1995kg
Hopefully that puts this to bed and everyone can see that you can find a combustion car that's lighter or heavier than an equivalent purpose built EV.
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You're still really stretching the definition of 'equivalent' by insisting that the 'minimalist' Tesla approach is genuinely equivalent to the sort of cars you're pitching them against. Teslas aren't light because they're EVs, they're light because Tesla's design choices for all the other aspects of the car are lightweight. If you were able to theoretically convert one to ICE, it'd almost certainly be lighter than it already is. (Edit - or perhaps more accurately, if you built a 'ground up ICE' version of a Model 3 that's similarly sparse in terms of interior etc. etc. it would be lighter still. Nobody does, because outside the cult of Tesla, nobody would buy that sort of car)
Until you find a decent comparison of 'ground up EV' vs ICE platforms, ideally from the same manufacturer producing identical segment cars, the entire premise is completely flawed.
Until you find a decent comparison of 'ground up EV' vs ICE platforms, ideally from the same manufacturer producing identical segment cars, the entire premise is completely flawed.
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Soldato
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The top end of most of those ICE will be the PHEV variants anyway.
Also, just noticed:
Tesla
BMW
So you can throw an extra 75kg onto the Tesla figures to make them equivalent to what 'legacy' manufacturers are quoting.
1970kg for the 3 series would appear to be the 330e PHEV Estate. The saloon is 1910kg.
3 Series ICE Saloon weight range is actually 1590kg to 1800kg against the Model 3s 1835kg to 1926kg (driver included).
So it would appear the lightest Model 3 is actually still heavier than the heaviest petrol 3 series saloon, the M340i, when you compare the figures and bodystyles on a more genuinely like for like basis.
I don't think anyone would argue that PHEVs aren't heavier, given they're carting around ICE and a mini EV drivetrain.
Edit - and to be charitable, going back to the original claim of 'The Tesla Model 3 Performance is lighter than the BMW M3' and using the M3 instead...
BMW M3 Comp Saloon xDrive - 1855kg
Tesla Model 3 Performance - 1926kg
I don't think the calculator needs to come out to decide which of those two numbers is heavier. I think blun has been suckered in by Tesla quoting driverless weights, much like the way they quote 0-60 with rollouts subtracted to make them look that little bit better.
Tesla
BMW
So you can throw an extra 75kg onto the Tesla figures to make them equivalent to what 'legacy' manufacturers are quoting.
1970kg for the 3 series would appear to be the 330e PHEV Estate. The saloon is 1910kg.
3 Series ICE Saloon weight range is actually 1590kg to 1800kg against the Model 3s 1835kg to 1926kg (driver included).
So it would appear the lightest Model 3 is actually still heavier than the heaviest petrol 3 series saloon, the M340i, when you compare the figures and bodystyles on a more genuinely like for like basis.
I don't think anyone would argue that PHEVs aren't heavier, given they're carting around ICE and a mini EV drivetrain.
Edit - and to be charitable, going back to the original claim of 'The Tesla Model 3 Performance is lighter than the BMW M3' and using the M3 instead...
BMW M3 Comp Saloon xDrive - 1855kg
Tesla Model 3 Performance - 1926kg
I don't think the calculator needs to come out to decide which of those two numbers is heavier. I think blun has been suckered in by Tesla quoting driverless weights, much like the way they quote 0-60 with rollouts subtracted to make them look that little bit better.
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He's not getting it is he 
cars that aren't the same, aren't the same 
like the XC90, model Y comparison he started off with, the 90 is in another league despite being an old donkey, the 90 has better materials, build quality and practicality, I mean all your 7 people can have legs and then there is safety gear that works, never mind the fact it'll likely do more than double the range of the Y (actually only a guess) but if I can't get 600 miles out of my petrol 60 which is fairly similar platform, then a diesel 90 should be doing far more, it probably does the Model Y range pulling a couple of tonnes To do these things the car has to be more robust which leads to more weight.
cars that aren't the same, aren't the same like the XC90, model Y comparison he started off with, the 90 is in another league despite being an old donkey, the 90 has better materials, build quality and practicality, I mean all your 7 people can have legs and then there is safety gear that works, never mind the fact it'll likely do more than double the range of the Y (actually only a guess) but if I can't get 600 miles out of my petrol 60 which is fairly similar platform, then a diesel 90 should be doing far more, it probably does the Model Y range pulling a couple of tonnes To do these things the car has to be more robust which leads to more weight.
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The cars in the post above are direct competitors though the EVs do have more luggage space due to not taking up space with an engine.
The comparison with the XC90 was purely as I physically did this last week. Model Y has more interior and luggage space, whilst being hundreds of kilos lighter. (Appreciate the 7 seat model Y isn’t sold in the UK). Yes it is shorter on the outside but I can’t think of a reason you’d particularly want a longer car with less interior space.
Model Y is also the safest car NCAP have tested so I don’t think the Volvo is safer (they are both excellent for safety).
Just to be clear I have no particular love for Tesla (apart from disrupting the industry). Had BMWs previously and switched to Tesla as at the time BMW didn’t have a 3 series EV. When they get to doing a purpose built 3 series or X3 EV I might swap back.
The comparison with the XC90 was purely as I physically did this last week. Model Y has more interior and luggage space, whilst being hundreds of kilos lighter. (Appreciate the 7 seat model Y isn’t sold in the UK). Yes it is shorter on the outside but I can’t think of a reason you’d particularly want a longer car with less interior space.
Model Y is also the safest car NCAP have tested so I don’t think the Volvo is safer (they are both excellent for safety).
Just to be clear I have no particular love for Tesla (apart from disrupting the industry). Had BMWs previously and switched to Tesla as at the time BMW didn’t have a 3 series EV. When they get to doing a purpose built 3 series or X3 EV I might swap back.
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Soldato
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An XC90 is an SUV4 segment car - which include Light Duty Truck Classification in the States and ECE M1G vehicle in Europe. The model Y somewhere between a SUV3 (C-segment) and an MPV.
They are not the same car.
They are not the same car.
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Not saying they are the same. I’m saying if your needs are passenger and luggage space (surely important criteria for most people) then the Y offers more space whilst being considerably lighter.
Most people expect a car that’s larger on the outside to have more space on the inside, but EV packaging means that’s sometimes not the case as in this example.
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What if they have 6 passengers and a caravan ?
Then for that edge case you get a diesel 7 seater for now.. (Not sure I'd want to sleep in a caravan with 6 other people though
)You could get a 7 seat EV and charge more often on the couple of trips a year where you take the caravan - but we need more pull-through chargers for this to be realistic. The driver would need to decide if a bit of extra charging on a caravan trip was worth the extra convenience that the EV offers the rest of the year round.
I only mentioned it as it's a good example of not making assumptions. My colleague has a XC90 for him, his wife and his 2 kids. They don't have a caravan, they don't need 7 seats, they just like/need the space. He thought the Model Y was less spacious and heavier, so we checked and found it was more spacious and lighter.