Even Augustus Gloop ain't safe (Dahl being censored)

Zatoichi.uK said:
The trouble with updating books to be in line with current thinking is that what is current constantly changes. If books are revised every time words or phrases become outdated then what is written by the original author just gets slowly eroded.

It's the ship of theseus in book form.
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The victorians (and others) bowedlerised books to fit in with the morals of the day. This was (dunno if it still is!) seen as a bad thing.

Ah, the brave new world. Ironically, also a book which is often censored...
 
bigmike20vt said:
also where do you draw the line. one of my famous 5 books (may be secret 7 but think it's the 5s). the kids come out of the cold shed as black as (N word). I don't want my pre teen reading that..... but equally I loved Enid blyton books and want my lad too as well.
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Is that the bad N word or the one that was, up until relatively recently the polite way to refer to black people. I wouldn't have a problem with my kids reading that because I could very easily explain to them why we don't use that word any more and why books that were written years ago might have language we don't use any more.

I think hiding these things from children means they don't understand how progress is made and how things change. We also have this ******* weird idea that white people back in the day had a lovely time oppressing the black people of the time. A few did, but the majority of white people were a rung up the **** ladder vs the black ones in 99% of cases. They lived in abject poverty, died young and had miserable existences working hard manual jobs.

I think talking to children about these things is a far better idea that completely removing them from their world personally. Perhaps if kids have things explained to them instead instead of hidden from them, they might grow up to have some critical thinking skills and not just parrot whatever the current zeitgeist is on every issue they see on social media.

We need more educated critical thinkers not more sheltered drones.
 
It was the one that i would likely get a forum ban if i wrote here (the other one, pardon my ignorance here, but i didnt know that was considered racist now!)

however whilst i would bet a significant sum what i said is true - i remember even going back 35 years being quite suprised it was in there so much so it stuck with me - a quick google shows no reference to it.....

unfortunately, whilst i kept all my books for donkeys years as i had spent a lot of my childhood collecting them from 2nd hand book stores..... they were stored at my parents home and they had a clear out a number of years back and got rid. (besides i cant remember exactly which famous 5 book it was and i am not prepared to read them all again now for a forum debate... am just not committed enough i guess :D

i am fairly certain any modern versions will have been edited by now.

i guess its a good job the story of dambusters is not aimed at kids, unless they would have no problem changing history as well..
 
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fez said:
Is that the bad N word or the one that was, up until relatively recently the polite way to refer to black people. I wouldn't have a problem with my kids reading that because I could very easily explain to them why we don't use that word any more and why books that were written years ago might have language we don't use any more.

I think hiding these things from children means they don't understand how progress is made and how things change. We also have this ******* weird idea that white people back in the day had a lovely time oppressing the black people of the time. A few did, but the majority of white people were a rung up the **** ladder vs the black ones in 99% of cases. They lived in abject poverty, died young and had miserable existences working hard manual jobs.

I think talking to children about these things is a far better idea that completely removing them from their world personally. Perhaps if kids have things explained to them instead instead of hidden from them, they might grow up to have some critical thinking skills and not just parrot whatever the current zeitgeist is on every issue they see on social media.

We need more educated critical thinkers not more sheltered drones.
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There is a growing issue with anxiety in children and being over protective and hiding them from reality is definitely not the approach to take,

The AMA (https://www.apa.org/monitor/2022/10/child-anxiety-treatment) say:
No matter the structure of treatment, however, parental involvement is key, Merson emphasized. Often, parents unwittingly foster a child’s anxiety by providing too much reassurance or protection. While that is a natural response, “it can actually perpetuate anxiety in the long term because the child isn’t learning how to handle difficult situations themself,”
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What's worse, is 'Inclusive Minds' profess they want to change books so children 'see themselves' in the books.. This is crazy and illogical.. this presupposes the child has made up their mind who they are precisely and therefore should seek out something 100% relatable to them. The reality is children are constantly developing physically and mentally and need the widest possible stimuli and experiences to really then understand who they are, what they like, etc.. It is quite insidious and the only pepole losing out are the Children..
 
am not sure how that equates to not editing out racial slurs or calling people Fat and ugly in kids books......
Like i said i admit it is a difficult one becasue my instant reaction is modifying something from the artists intent is bad.............. but OTOH it is hard to explain to an only just turned 7 year old that its not nice to call someone fat or ugly..... when that is exactly what characters are doing in the books he is reading.
I have this issue at the moment...... generally i dont really like my lad using terms like crap and fart (not sure if that will hit the sensors)............. but these terms are used in the school books he is reading. I am not that bothered on these TBH and have relaxed my view a little......... but i would still rather he didnt use those terms. (part of the issue is he is an advanced reader so is actually reading stuff which is aimed at kids a little older than him)

and then also like i said where do you draw the line........ if you are of the view that Fat and ugly can stay.... but not the N word for instance, then, that is just a judgement call you are making, you are still on the scale of it is ok to modify kids literature sometimes...... then it is just a matter of where on the scale you are.
 
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bigmike20vt said:
am not sure how that equates to not editing out racial slurs or calling people Fat and ugly in kids books......
Like i said i admit it is a difficult one becasue my instant reaction is modifying something from the artists intent is bad.............. but OTOH it is hard to explain to an only just turned 7 year old that its not nice to call someone fat or ugly..... when that is exactly what characters are doing in the books he is reading.
I have this issue at the moment...... generally i dont really like my lad using terms like crap and fart (not sure if that will hit the sensors)............. but these terms are used in the school books he is reading. I am not that bothered on these TBH and have relaxed my view a little......... but i would still rather he didnt use those terms. (part of the issue is he is an advanced reader so is actually reading stuff which is aimed at kids a little older than him)

and then also like i said where do you draw the line........ if you are of the view that Fat and ugly can stay.... but not the N word for instance, then, that is just a judgement call you are making, you are still on the scale of it is ok to modify kids literature sometimes...... then it is just a matter of where on the scale you are.
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This is spot on. It isn't comfortable having artists work modified, but if it solves an immediate and trivial problem at no detriment to anyone - why not?

I'd prefer my little one not hearing about the Ugly Sisters in Cinderella, but it genuinely explains why their being ugly has nothing to do with "looks" but to do with their personality.

Gloop on the other hand was called fat because Dahl was a bit of a dick.
 
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beachBOYken said:
So in the future, instead of kids calling other kids in the playground fat, they are going to call them enormous.
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kids will do what kids do.... the reality is you cant stop it, but i would rather IF kids are going to do it the least they can do is know it is wrong and us not normalise it.

its no more acceptable to call someone fat than it is to comment on the size of their boobs really, and that would not be looked upon fondly.
 
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dLockers said:
This is spot on. It isn't comfortable having artists work modified, but if it solves an immediate and trivial problem at no detriment to anyone - why not?

I'd prefer my little one not hearing about the Ugly Sisters in Cinderella, but it genuinely explains why their being ugly has nothing to do with "looks" but to do with their personality.

Gloop on the other hand was called fat because Dahl was a bit of a dick.
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that is actually a really good example where imo ugly i would consider appropriate (again judgement call on my part) because ugly is nothing to do with looks.....

Dahl was a dick? maybe (i dont know enough about him other than he had a head injury which apparently radically changed his personality)..... but he was one of my fave authors as a child, his books were/are phenomenal.
 
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bigmike20vt said:
that is actually a really good example where imo ugly i would consider appropriate (again judgement call on my part) because ugly is nothing to do with looks.....

Dahl was a dick? maybe (i dont know enough about him other than he had a head injury which apparently radically changing his personality)..... but he was one of my fave authors as a child, his books were/are phenomenal.
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The Oopma Lumpas were originally black 'pygmie' people. They were literally slaves acquired to work in the factory for free. James and Giant Peach had words cussing Mexicans in it. He spoke out about Jews. He was an adulterer and was abusive to his wife. He even called Cinderella a dirty ****.
 
bigmike20vt said:
kids will do what kids do.... the reality is you cant stop it, but i would rather IF kids are going to do it the least they can do is know it is wrong and us not normalise it.

its no more acceptable to call someone fat than it is to comment on the size of their boobs really, and that would not be looked upon fondly.
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Completely different. Breast size is largely genetic. Being a porker is largely due to lard.
 
Dis86 said:
Completely different. Breast size is largely genetic. Being a porker is largely due to lard.
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this is where i disagree..... regardless of the cause i dont want my child to ridicule anyone..... to me that is just wanting my child to be a polite and decent kid and not pick on others regardless of the reason.
 
bigmike20vt said:
this is where i disagree..... regardless of the cause i dont want my child to ridicule anyone..... to me that is just wanting my child to be a polite and decent kid and not pick on others regardless of the reason.
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You disagree with biology?
 
dLockers said:
No one made an argument; you just decided to be obtuse and make a point no-one else was making.
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He did by comparing a largely uncontrollable physical attribute vs one that is. I'd quite happily have my child accept that a healthy body weight is important and that being overweight is something that should be avoided.
 
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