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EVGA terminates relationship with NVIDIA

DeliciousStorage said:
I believe it did affect every single 3070 TI FE that was used at 100% load. In this review temperatures went up to 82c, if you put it in a closed case or in a slightly warmer room that will add a few degrees. After several minutes mine would reach 85-86c at which point the clocks would fluctuate between 1760MHz-1800MHz due to thermal throttling. The cooler simply wasn't good enough and AIB cards are still way ahead in temperature and noise levels.
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Couldn't see any mention on the usual youtuber review breakdowns. Although the TI version was barely any better than the stock 3070. Except more VRAM if we are going go down that road of argument again.
 
eddyr said:
That is simple maths.

10% of X is less than 10% of 2X.

They may make double the $ but it is still 10% margin.
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Yes so for the margins to fall from 67% to 43% then unit prices have to fall irrespective of how many units they sell which would imply that nvidia has indeed reduced prices for AIBs (maybe just not EVGA) as just the founders cards in which only a couple have seen price cuts wouldn't account for such a large drop in their margins.
 
Ross Thomson said:
Its called resale price maintenance.

www.ashurst.com

CN08 - FCO imposes fines of 21 million on manufacturers and retailers of musical instruments

On 5 August 2021, the FCO imposed a total of EUR 21 million in fines on three manufacturers of musical instruments for RPM and on two retailers for horizontal price fixing.
www.ashurst.com www.ashurst.com

www.gov.uk

Dar Lighting fined £1.5 million for illegally preventing online price discounts

Lessons learned from the CMA’s latest resale price maintenance investigation in which Dar Lighting broke competition law by dictating minimum resale prices and preventing customer discounts online.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk

Simmons & Simmons

www.simmons-simmons.com www.simmons-simmons.com

High fine for resale price maintenance: warning for suppliers

The Netherlands Authority for Consumers and Markets (ACM) has imposed a high fine of €39 million on electronics group Samsung for exerting undue influence on the retail prices of televisions, in breach of competition law. A...
www.maverick-law.com www.maverick-law.com

Recent Insights | White & Case LLP

www.whitecase.com www.whitecase.com
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Those are retail price maintenance, it is a different scenario.
Plus the top two relate to a blanket coordinated price increase, and a minimum allowed price on the retailer side.

I don't think it has any bearing on AIB partners relationships their contracts and renewal, and is a step away from next stop in supply chain distributers?

Edit: clarity
 
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eddyr said:
Those are retail price maintenance, it is a different scenario.
Plus the top two relate to a blanket coordinated price increase, and a minimum allowed price on the retailer side.

I don't think it has any bearing on AIB partners relationships their contracts and renewal, and is a step away from next stop in supply chain distributers?

Edit: clarity
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resale not retail. RPM also includes stopping supply because you won't sell at what the supplier tells you too. Suppliers like nvidia cannot tell AIBs what they can and can't sell their products at. They also can't stop supply on the basis of not doing so.
 
Nexus18 said:
The question is, if Nvidia did away with all their aibs, would people really care as long as Nvidia make good products/coolers and charge them competitively to the competition? Aside from having more choice and possibly better coolers + warranty/CS, I can't think of many serious downsides.

I used to be all about the aibs but the FE cooler/design changed my mind and I've read that amds reference design for rDNA 2 is also very good, which made the aib models less appealing too.
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People would care because the Founders Editions are overpriced. Here's how AIB pricing usualy pans out over the lifetime of a GPU vs the more expensive FE option. You clearly have a short memory if you think this generation with covid and mining is the norm.

RTX 2000 prices at launch

GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Founders Edition £1,099
GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Asus £1,049
GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Palit £1,099
GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Inno3D £1,099
GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Gigabyte £1,099

GeForce RTX 2080 Founders Edition £749
GeForce RTX 2080 Asus £715.99
GeForce RTX 2080 Palit £749
GeForce RTX 2080 Inno3D £749

RTX 2000 prices after 6 months

GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Founders Edition £1,099
GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Palit £979.99
GeForce RTX 2080 Ti EVGA £1,049
GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Zotac £1,0969
GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Gigabyte £1,099

GeForce RTX 2080 Founders Edition £749
GeForce RTX 2080 Palit £638.99
GeForce RTX 2080 MSI £659.99
GeForce RTX 2080 Inno3D £698.99
GeForce RTX 2080 EVGA £719.99

GTX 10 prices at launch

1080 Founders Edition £619
1080 OCUK Value £469.99
1080 MSI £539.99
1080 KFA2 £589.99

GTX 10 prices after 6 months

1080 Founders Edition £619
1080 KFA2 £589.99
1080 Gainward £599.99

GTX 10 prices after 12 months

1080 Founders Edition £619
1080 KFA2 £499.99
1080 EVGA £509.99
1080 Palit £529.99
1080 Zotac £529.99

GTX 10 prices after 18 months

1080 Founders Edition £619
1080 Inno3D £469.99
1080 MSI £499.99
1080 Zotac £499.99
1080 Palit £499.99
1080 Asus £499.99
1080 Gigabyte £518.99
 
Gregster said:
Geeez, I have been away a long time. Last time I was here, Nexus was an AMD fanboy :D :D
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Always the way here :D You say something bad about amd = "nvidia fanboy", say something bad about nvidia = "amd fanboy" :cry:

As you know too well, I'm no fan of nvidia and do much prefer amd (3080 was first nvidia gpu since the 8800, been on several amd cards since then), amd are the lesser of 2 evils but ultimately I couldn't care less about either of their business practices these days, whatever matches my needs for my budget will get my money and with amd now deciding that they can charge the same as their competitor even when they didn't/weren't offering the same full package... it didn't make much sense to buy the lesser product for a similar price (or rather a more expensive price due to zero chance of getting one in the UK for MSRP...). Especially since I'm no longer willing to wait for months/years for it to catch up :p

CuriousTomCat said:
People would care because the Founders Editions are overpriced. Here's how AIB pricing usualy pans out over the lifetime of a GPU vs the more expensive FE option. You clearly have a short memory if you think this generation with covid and mining is the norm.

RTX 2000 prices at launch

GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Founders Edition £1,099
GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Asus £1,049
GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Palit £1,099
GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Inno3D £1,099
GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Gigabyte £1,099

GeForce RTX 2080 Founders Edition £749
GeForce RTX 2080 Asus £715.99
GeForce RTX 2080 Palit £749
GeForce RTX 2080 Inno3D £749

RTX 2000 prices after 6 months

GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Founders Edition £1,099
GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Palit £979.99
GeForce RTX 2080 Ti EVGA £1,049
GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Zotac £1,0969
GeForce RTX 2080 Ti Gigabyte £1,099

GeForce RTX 2080 Founders Edition £749
GeForce RTX 2080 Palit £638.99
GeForce RTX 2080 MSI £659.99
GeForce RTX 2080 Inno3D £698.99
GeForce RTX 2080 EVGA £719.99

GTX 10 prices at launch

1080 Founders Edition £619
1080 OCUK Value £469.99
1080 MSI £539.99
1080 KFA2 £589.99

GTX 10 prices after 6 months

1080 Founders Edition £619
1080 KFA2 £589.99
1080 Gainward £599.99

GTX 10 prices after 12 months

1080 Founders Edition £619
1080 KFA2 £499.99
1080 EVGA £509.99
1080 Palit £529.99
1080 Zotac £529.99

GTX 10 prices after 18 months

1080 Founders Edition £619
1080 Inno3D £469.99
1080 MSI £499.99
1080 Zotac £499.99
1080 Palit £499.99
1080 Asus £499.99
1080 Gigabyte £518.99
Click to expand...

Apparently nvidia priced their 30xx FE accordingly because of amd being competitive for the first time in a while though..... so if the hype train for 7xxx is true then going by the same logic, we should see nvidia price their 40xx FE accordingly too?

Not long to find out with the next range on Tuesday.
 
Frenzy said:
I went and had a look for it and found this https://www.twobirds.com/en/insights/2020/global/retail-price-maintenance-in-the-eu

But, if nvidia are charging high prices for the gpus that kind of determines the prices retailers will sell for.
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Then how does the press fix the price at which a newspaper can be sold for at retailers? All magazines have a price on the front cover which retailers have to stick to. Sometimes food and drink has a retail price printed on the label at the factory. All the games consoles have a UK MSRP.
 
Joxeon said:
Yes so for the margins to fall from 67% to 43% then unit prices have to fall irrespective of how many units they sell which would imply that nvidia has indeed reduced prices for AIBs (maybe just not EVGA) as just the founders cards in which only a couple have seen price cuts wouldn't account for such a large drop in their margins.
Click to expand...

It could be the prices of some of the other components that have fallen such as VRAM, aluminum, copper etc. Maybe even TSMC dropping their prices.
 
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Ross Thomson said:
resale not retail. RPM also includes stopping supply because you won't sell at what the supplier tells you too. Suppliers like nvidia cannot tell AIBs what they can and can't sell their products at. They also can't stop supply on the basis of not doing so.
Click to expand...

All the articles describe scenarios involving retailers, which is a rather specific common detail present in each of the examples, and involve somewhat comedically direct manner of price fixing or forcing/threatening compliance - as you say outright telling them what they can and cant sell at. But that scenario doesn't fit.

The AIB partners are themselves a product assembler/manufacturer, up the chain from retailers and operating outside the EU in their interaction with Nvidia. And it is the interaction between the AIB and Nvidia, not downstream distributers and eventual retailers in the EU, where inflexible and 'unpartnerlike' authoritarian pricing practices would allegedly be taking place.

The exact details of the EU legislation, from the examples given admittedly, and its relevance to the relationship between the AIB's and Nvidia is not clear in order to definitively say that Nvidia cannot quite easily use such or other controlling tactics with the AIB's.

And this is all academic in itself as a.) the illegality of an activity (which in this case hasn't been determined) doesn't have any bearing on what a business does in practice, and b.) there are plenty of ways in which to control pricing that doesn't require the huddled discussion and directive to 'lets all do this' or a have supplier threatening to upturn the table (as covered in the linked examples). Rebates and their conditions/renegotiations, volume, priority of supply, various forms of support, all spring to mind. And while a lot may be considered to be anti-competitive by their outcome in such a way that the EU thinks it should fall under their legislation, good luck to them identifying and investigating it and reaching some outcome in a timely manner that matters to the market its trying to protect and which doesn't get written off by those fined as the cost of doing business.
 
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CuriousTomCat said:
Then how does the press fix the price at which a newspaper can be sold for at retailers? All magazines have a price on the front cover which retailers have to stick to. Sometimes food and drink has a retail price printed on the label at the factory. All the games consoles have a UK MSRP.
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Technically the s in msrp stands for suggested. :p

Jokes out the way you have a good point and I feel like I remember during the launch of the new consoles both Sony and MS stated that they were trying to control end prices to stop gouging by retailers.
 
EVGA makes it out to be that they've been trapped in a BS controlling relationship. And who'd really want to be stuck in one of those? Not me.
So I don't know the truth of it, but if what they're saying is true then I don't blame them for getting out of it.
 


www.igorslab.de

EVGA pulls the plug with a loud bang, but it has been stewing for a long time | Editorial | igor´sLAB

If you want to (or have to) separate, then there are two ways to announce this: one emotionless and one where you once again seek the big stage. EVGA chose, what a coincidence, the time shortly before…
www.igorslab.de www.igorslab.de

EVGA pulls the plug with a loud bang, but it has been stewing for a long time | Editorial​


19. September 2022 05:08
Igor Wallossek

If you want to (or have to) separate, then there are two ways to announce this: one emotionless and one where you once again seek the big stage. EVGA chose, what a coincidence, the time shortly before NVIDIA’s in-house exhibition GTC (after that, the whole thing would have gone down a bit) to drop the bombshell that wasn’t really a bombshell anymore. This media uprising and aftermath is really just the long overdue flashback after a smoldering fire that lasted for months and in which the green fuse was even shorter than Jensen’s wood screws in his old Fermi mock up.
I thought long and hard about whether to write something about it (and about what), because I also have my own private opinion about the circumstances in general and EVGA’s appearance in particular, which has been formed in the last few years also due to my own experiences. That’s why I also used the weekend to chat or talk on the phone with one or the other competitor and colleague, in addition to all the benchmarks. Because the way in which and where the reason is now located and the way in which a suitable culprit is presented at the same time has caused quite a stir among many people. It’s not about defending NVIDIA, but using Jensen as the ideal object of hatred is a bit short-sighted and only distracts from one’s own failures. But you have to throw something down the throat of the investors and brand-affine customers. And that’s where the green leather jacket Hulk is best suited.
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nDemSMX.jpg


My colleague Stephen Burke from Gamersnexus has actually already said most of it, I don’t need to dissect and regurgitate that again. I’ll just post the short quote from EVGA CEO Andrew Han again now before I get my own thoughts on it.


We are not going to be on Jensen’s lap on stage, so I don’t want people to speculate what’s going on….EVGA has decided to nat carry the next gen. (Andrew Han, CEO)




The business model: Let others do it​


In principle, EVGA is nothing more than a brand without its own production. Of course, the company has its own R&D department for the engineering, but the level of creativity is not particularly high here either, if you only have to rely on the abilities of third parties in the end, be it the circuit boards, the coolers and the complete production as the final implementation. Unfortunately, having it done instead of doing it yourself costs money. And while this very concept mitigates risk and effort in manufacturing, it also reduces the margin that can still be achieved with such a highly complex product. Therefore, I asked several competitors and found out that the currently achievable margins in the worst case (like EVGA) are still 5%, and up to 10% for the do-it-yourself manufacturers, who can manage an own production.


This is not less than in 2021 or 2020, only this year merchandise sales have dropped significantly due to orders staying away and a change in demand. However, that one produces at a loss because of NVIDIA’s money-grubbing claws, as EVGA colports, is considered by many to be an urban legend. These are rather homemade problems with faulty designs and a RMA rate that was beyond good and evil. I don’t want to quote myself again, but the disaster with Amazon’s New World and the scorched circuit boards was expensive, really expensive. To attach this to every card as a loss is definitely too short-sighted.


Let’s say they made 10x profit than normal business last year, if you are the boss, will you quit now or waste another 10 years just to make the same profit amount last year? (Competitor)




The business of brands is actually like the good old stock market business, because you should sell at the peak and best take what is still to be taken. If you have to buy almost all services at a high price, there is not much left in the graphics card business. A large manufacturer (not EVGA) easily produces around 200,000 graphics cards per week, which puts the 5 to 10 percent in a different light. In the system gastronomy, business also only works via sheer mass, which is no different with graphics cards. However, EVGA lacks exactly this mass (which can also be seen as a buffer), which can cushion smaller outliers.




If you ask the competitors why they haven’t copied EVGA’s warranty, upgrade and exchange model as well, you actually only see grinning faces or shaking heads. Statements such as “economic suicide by default” are still the most polite thing to say. I wrote that the cards have become more and more complex and that the risk of failure has increased dramatically as a result. Therefore, the RMA processes do not become more favorable, on the contrary. Goodwill and generosity, as EVGA has made its trademark, must also be afforded and what was manageable 10 years ago can end in collapse any day today. House of cards and all. Here, EVGA simply lacks the critical mass to easily pull off something like this financially. Being the US market leader is all well and good, but how big is the DIY market there?


If it were profitable, we would have done it long ago (Competitor)




Peripherals and power supplies are much easier to keep track of and now offer much higher margins of up to 30 percent. Power supplies are just the new thermal paste and the run is still properly fueled by ATX 3.0. Speaking of power supplies, I remember how EVGA at the time (this was back in the Kepler days) made the sampling of graphics cards dependent on a positive review of the newly introduced power supplies. Back then, I was still writing for Tom’s Hardware and very stubbornly resisted the “reward for award” system. At that time, however, the “Just buy it!” philosophy did not yet exist there and one was still allowed to do such things as a reviewer.


As a result, I was then excluded from sampling for a few years. By the way, I’m still alive, which shows once again that you don’t have to go along with something like that if you don’t want to. I also don’t want to repeat how EVGA products later failed my tests and the engineering used my findings (pad mod, area increase on the cooling frame, RAM monitoring in the ICX design), but the PR kicked nasty in my direction. I never asked for money for my support, but would probably have been happy to receive a thank you now and then. By the way, this is exactly where you notice the difference between a US company like EVGA and a German medium-sized company. EVGA is extremely profit-oriented, and when things don’t go so well, they just part with a division. By the way, this is not reprehensible, but the explanations should then also be more honest.
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Nvidia’s Rules and AMD’s Protectionism – Clever Quality Management, Profit Maximization and Niche Manufacturers – Behind-the-scenes Insights

www.igorslab.de

Nvidia’s Rules and AMD’s Protectionism - Clever Quality Management, Profit Maximization and Niche Manufacturers - Behind-the-scenes Insights

amd, green light, nvidia, produktion, qualitätssicherung, GPU, grafikkarte, herstellung, fehler, china, asrock
www.igorslab.de www.igorslab.de

The Green Light Program as a buzzkill​


And what does NVIDIA have to do with it now? Yes, even the competitors are properly ****** off that they still don’t know NVIDIA’s prices and don’t know at which dumping or scalper rate Master Jensen will beat his new Ada into the market as a playmate (depending). That’s why you won’t see so many completely new designs, and what I had already called “Playground” in the GeForce RTX 3090 Ti will mostly be continued. This is then economic prudence and not even stupid. EVGA could have thought of that as well.


However, you also have to know that NVIDIA strives for total control and also mercilessly enforces these policies. There isn’t much room left for technical gimmicks á la EVGA’s special models and both sides have clashed hard not only once. EVGA always explores how far you can go and NVIDIA then intervenes to correct the situation. I have already explained this in detail in the article linked above and I don’t want to repeat myself. However, it is also a fact that NVIDIA only provides replacements if you follow “NVIDIA’s rules”. You can approve of this or not, but it leads (at least in theory) to more durable products.


Things like EVGA’s Kingpin models break those rules, but that’s where they’ve found a clever loophole because it’s effectively declared a mod. Galax does the same with the HoF series. Various overclockers give their face for it (for good money) and it is not a consumer product. That’s why you don’t get a real HoF including unlimited OC tool as a normal customer, but only the “roadworthy” version under the same name. The rest is then expensive cannon fodder for the LN2 artillery. Such marketing escapades also cost money, of course, even if they can boost the company’s image. The good Kingpin must now look for another place in the money rainforest, but the choice is rather manageable there.


I didn’t really want to go that far, but once you’re in such a nice writing flow, the shore you’re aiming for gets further and further away. In order to come to some kind of conclusion at the end, I’ll make it simple for myself, because I can perhaps also question some things differently: It is certainly not a loss for me (and many others), because it became apparent that the model practiced for years would no longer have been financially viable in this way. And before one admits this publicly and meekly, one looks for the last big performance and says goodbye to the shocked audience with a big bang. I only hope that all previous customers will still be dealt with gallantly and treated fairly. Then it will surely work out with the power supplies, housings and other stuff.


After all, I haven’t heard from any other small Jensen exclusive customers that they now have to throw in the towel for the reasons I mentioned. But they can probably calculate better and also produce themselves. It is a pity about a colorful facet on the graphics card market, which I will also miss, but the customer will get over it.
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Not saying he's wrong but it's a bit hypocritical to say there are two ways to announce this: one emotionless and one where you once again seek the big stage and then publish an article that's essentially an opinion piece.
 
Ever since Igor made the comment of "gsync adds input lag", haven't been able to take what he says seriously :cry:

Surprised nvidia stock hasn't gone down with the announcment given EVGA was 40% of the sales in NA???

LElqmpm.png
 
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Murphy said:
Not saying he's wrong but it's a bit hypocritical to say there are two ways to announce this: one emotionless and one where you once again seek the big stage and then publish an article that's essentially an opinion piece.
Click to expand...

He does state in the article it's his opinion and how he saw things. Just a different point of view and nice to see the other sides as there is always more than what is obvious and always two or more sides to any event/story.
 
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