F1 2012 - Teams and Drivers - Who goes where?!
- Thread starter Malt_Vinegar
- Start date
The neat little back end which so many people (inexplicably) were impressed with was disaster.
In pre-season, a lot of people were raving about it. Some were even suggesting that perhaps other teams (including RBR) should copy it. The mind boggles. I was thinking to myself that before declaring something as great, we need to see how the thing performs. Low and behold, it was a bit a joke. (I'd put that neat rear end, on the same level as McLaren's central mid wing (1995)). I'm surprised that they didn't redesign the car from scratch, mid season (Im not sure if the current regs allow this).
In any case, 2011 was one of their worst every seasons.
So, why are they performing badly and getting steadily worse? Could it be as simple as throwing money at the problem(s)? Would this solve the issues or is it not as easy as this? What if they went out, spending money on the most successful designers/technicians? Perhaps steal some of RBR's staff. Could this work?
Is money the cause of this? In 1992/3/4 (when they had the 3 best drivers in F1 drive for them, in successive years), they would not have dreamed of hiring a rent-a-driver, though now, they are obviously required to have 1 rent-a-driver who brings money in and isn't particularly good, while the other driver is expected to bring in the points. They appear to be operating in exactly the same that a new team operates, ie survive at all costs, even if it means hiring bad drivers (who bring lots of money into the team).
I remember way back in the mid 90s when McLaren began to diversify into building commercial vehicles, in order to boost their image/brand and in turn, boost their sponsorship/income. Williams on the other hand maintained their place as an F1 team (only). Personally, I think this was a massive error. They could've built up a massive commercial image had they ventured into putting their name on production cars. Imagine having Mansell, Senna, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve, advertising your cars. This is a marketing man's wet dream!
In pre-season, a lot of people were raving about it. Some were even suggesting that perhaps other teams (including RBR) should copy it. The mind boggles. I was thinking to myself that before declaring something as great, we need to see how the thing performs. Low and behold, it was a bit a joke. (I'd put that neat rear end, on the same level as McLaren's central mid wing (1995)). I'm surprised that they didn't redesign the car from scratch, mid season (Im not sure if the current regs allow this).
In any case, 2011 was one of their worst every seasons.
So, why are they performing badly and getting steadily worse? Could it be as simple as throwing money at the problem(s)? Would this solve the issues or is it not as easy as this? What if they went out, spending money on the most successful designers/technicians? Perhaps steal some of RBR's staff. Could this work?
Is money the cause of this? In 1992/3/4 (when they had the 3 best drivers in F1 drive for them, in successive years), they would not have dreamed of hiring a rent-a-driver, though now, they are obviously required to have 1 rent-a-driver who brings money in and isn't particularly good, while the other driver is expected to bring in the points. They appear to be operating in exactly the same that a new team operates, ie survive at all costs, even if it means hiring bad drivers (who bring lots of money into the team).
I remember way back in the mid 90s when McLaren began to diversify into building commercial vehicles, in order to boost their image/brand and in turn, boost their sponsorship/income. Williams on the other hand maintained their place as an F1 team (only). Personally, I think this was a massive error. They could've built up a massive commercial image had they ventured into putting their name on production cars. Imagine having Mansell, Senna, Prost, Hill, Villeneuve, advertising your cars. This is a marketing man's wet dream!
Soldato
It's like that old saying success breeds success.
When it all worked out top drivers wanted to be there as did sponsors.
They have been on a bit of a downward spiral since they stopped delivering, and there are probably many factors which have contributed but money must definitely be a major one.
When it all worked out top drivers wanted to be there as did sponsors.
They have been on a bit of a downward spiral since they stopped delivering, and there are probably many factors which have contributed but money must definitely be a major one.
For all we know it worked well and their car would have been even worse without it.
Soldato
I don't have one, if I did I would be working for Williams.
It's all to easy and so stereotypical to come out with that. Yes their old and the team has history with some of the people from the late 80s and 90s but I'm sure Frank Williams understands change and what is going on with his team. I'm sure there are a lot of people around the team today that had nothing to do with it during its hay day.
All I'm saying is that I don't think its as simple as your earlier comments. I didn't mean to offend you.
I'd like to think they will get better, lets be honest they can't get much worse.
This. I can't see smaller and lower read end packaging being anything but a good thing? But any advantage it did bring was masked by what was overall a really poor car...
With regards to small rear end being good, we know only the following:
1. this year's fastest cars did not have a tight rear end.
2. one of this year's slowest car did have a tight rear end.
3. despite seeing the tight rear end design in preseason, none of the teams decided to incorporate/copy any of this technology into their existing car (which is what happened with flexi wings, f-duct, multi decker diffusers, etc).
Now, those are facts.
Here comes the conjecture:
To me, it is more likely that the tight rear end was more a failure, than a success. Especially given that no other team even attempted to copy it (which is what tends to happen when certain design feature is deemed to be successful). Why didn't that tight rear end tweak the interest of any of the leading teams?
Even on slower cars, some designs are deemed to be top notch (eg. Renault's exhaust design), yet Williams' tight rear end just wasn't on the radar and appears to have been dismissed by every team in the pit lane.
1. this year's fastest cars did not have a tight rear end.
2. one of this year's slowest car did have a tight rear end.
3. despite seeing the tight rear end design in preseason, none of the teams decided to incorporate/copy any of this technology into their existing car (which is what happened with flexi wings, f-duct, multi decker diffusers, etc).
Now, those are facts.
Here comes the conjecture:
To me, it is more likely that the tight rear end was more a failure, than a success. Especially given that no other team even attempted to copy it (which is what tends to happen when certain design feature is deemed to be successful). Why didn't that tight rear end tweak the interest of any of the leading teams?
Even on slower cars, some designs are deemed to be top notch (eg. Renault's exhaust design), yet Williams' tight rear end just wasn't on the radar and appears to have been dismissed by every team in the pit lane.
Not necessarily.
Even if you had all the answers to Williams' problems, you may choose not to inform them of your ideas, because you have no interest in helping them. They may also not take you seriously (even though you may be correct) and may tell you to leave the building when you attempt to discuss your plans/ideas. You may also live far away from Didcot, meaning that working for them just isn't going to happen....[you get the idea]
In Football/Soccer, many fans have ideas how their team can improve. It doesnt mean that they should be employed by their football club.
If you are going to shoot down somebody elses idea (no matter how ludicrous it sounds), you need to give reasons why. The following is not a reason: "I don't think it's that simple at all."
The Red Bull had a considerably tighter packaged rear end than both throw McLaren and the Ferrari. It was even sighted as a possible reason for their repeated KERS failures.
And the Williams rear end was not just a simple bodywork job, it was based around a completely redesigned gearbox layout, so was not something that could have been easily copied.
But only a couple of weeks and we will see what people have done.
Only 2 weeks till we start to see some of the new cars 
Williams didnt have the slowest car just because of the backend it might have been marginal and not worth the trade off.
exactly for a team like williams investing so much time on the rear end would have cost them massively in other areas, they were looking for the double diffuser bullet but the gamble didnt pay off.
for a team like red bull they can afford the budgets and the manpower, williams dont have that luxury anymore.
maybe they can try to capitalise on the knowledge they gained for this years car though which gives them an advantage over the other mid field teams with similar budgets
for a team like red bull they can afford the budgets and the manpower, williams dont have that luxury anymore.
maybe they can try to capitalise on the knowledge they gained for this years car though which gives them an advantage over the other mid field teams with similar budgets
i wouldnt count them out of beeng mid field, be sad to see them behind caterham but i guess its their own fault they have ended up like this.
they should have tried to keep on the WDC drivers not refuse to give them a fair wage, if i were a williams sponsor i would be pretty disapointed if they won the wdc and then let the driver who won it go to another team
they should have tried to keep on the WDC drivers not refuse to give them a fair wage, if i were a williams sponsor i would be pretty disapointed if they won the wdc and then let the driver who won it go to another team
Soldato
Yeah the rumours are pretty much constant and from varying sources, including from Senna's manager. I'd say it's a done deal, with Senna giving the team around £30m for the seat. Quite why Williams are delaying the announcement is anyones guess. Adam Parr probably being a prat as usual and playing games.
Time for Barrichello to look elsewhere. Possibly Indy? Hopefully ALMS or Le Mans.
Time for Barrichello to look elsewhere. Possibly Indy? Hopefully ALMS or Le Mans.
Or DTM?
TBH, there are quite a lot of options for ex F1 drivers, and some of them are very successful.