Does competitive not mean the same as race winning, McLaren did win 5 races last year.
F1 Pre-Season Test Week 4: Barcelona 8th - 11th March
- Thread starter Shimmy
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Does competitive not mean the same as race winning, McLaren did win 5 races last year.
totally agree with everything - the fact MS's name was leaked (as in talks with the team) when theoretically JB was also still in talks stinks to high heaven to me
(Now whether this was JUST down to Merc, or was some of Brawn's doing as well I dont know, but given the success he has had with Bennetton and Ferrari, I cant see how Brawn could have pushed that hard for JB in any case or to put it another way I doubt Merc wouldnt have listened to him had he wanted JB to stay)
Dont see how it can ever be seen as a mistake if Merc never really wanted JB to stay in the first place. Would you stay somewhere you blatantly were not wanted (with your career on the line).
Remember the team could always be seen to be supporting JB but actually be fully behind who ever was in the other car (just like RB to Mark last season - although nowhere near as obvious) - it wasnt worth the gamble to stay imo whatever the "ifs, buts and maybe's" of what the car might have been like a season or two down the road.
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I guess the word "competitive" is subjective.
In general, I think we are using that word to mean, a championship challenger.
In 2007, McLaren had both their drivers finish 1 point off the title race (so it was a championship challenger).
In 2008, they won the title, so it was a title challenger.
Unfortunately, last year, the RBR was so far ahead of the competition, McLaren were being made to look very ordinary in races. Especially when RBR were able to go 1s/lap faster than them, in some races. Last year RBR had a car capable of winning every race. McLaren did not.
Hamilton needs a title challenger. It simply isn't good enough to provide a driver of his calibre with a car which is capable of winning a few races, but can't compete for the title, over a full season.
Personally, I want to see the best drivers, all competing for the lead in any given race, as this creates a lot of excitement.
Lets be honest though they were a long way off the pace for most of the season. They won in 2007 but I still say that's because ferrari didn't have a top line driver in the car that was interested or hungry. Massa is not a top line driver and kimi had given up.
I wish people would stop with this 'they didn't want JB' stuff. All they tried to do was negotiate hard on the wages, of course they would talk to other drivers. They may have just used MS to drive JB to sign the contract.
We don't know, but to suggest they didn't want him when they offered more than Mclaren by the end is pretty stupid. Drivers visit other teams for talks about openings all the time.
Brawn was only ever positive about Button, even when he had cause to say something negative he stood by him. If he wanted to run him out of the team firstly he wouldn't have kept offering more money and he could have offered no contract in the first place.
The trouble for me with Button now is he lost the hunger. I was very dissapointed to see him last year say he had achieved all his goals and it wasn't about winning more titles, if he didn't win one again it wouldn't matter.
You would never ever hear that from Lewis, Alonso or Vettel. I think he's happy being at a big team with all the mod cons with a fraction of the hunger.
You may well say that he has lost his hunger. But he performed pretty damned well last year.
IMO last year, was his best season, whereby he was almost able to run neck and neck with arguably the fastest driver currently in F1 and the driver who matched Alonso (arguably the best overall driver currently in F1) in 2007.
I think Button raised his game last year...despite his alleged lack of hunger.
Furthermore, to move to Hamilton's team (McLaren) is something I never thought I would see. The last time I saw such a bold move was when Senna moved to Prost's team (McLaren) and decided to take on Prost.
In general, top drivers tend to avoid moving to a team, where there is already an established top driver present. Much like you would not see Alonso move to McLaren or RBR OR Vettel move to McLaren or Ferrari OR when MSc was top - Hakkinen moving to MSc's team; by rights we should not have seen the (then) reigning World Champion move to McLaren, knowing that his entire reputation could be shot to pieces if he gets comprehensively beaten by Hamilton (which was a real possibility). Thankfully for him, this never happened.
IMO last year, was his best season, whereby he was almost able to run neck and neck with arguably the fastest driver currently in F1 and the driver who matched Alonso (arguably the best overall driver currently in F1) in 2007.
I think Button raised his game last year...despite his alleged lack of hunger.
Furthermore, to move to Hamilton's team (McLaren) is something I never thought I would see. The last time I saw such a bold move was when Senna moved to Prost's team (McLaren) and decided to take on Prost.
In general, top drivers tend to avoid moving to a team, where there is already an established top driver present. Much like you would not see Alonso move to McLaren or RBR OR Vettel move to McLaren or Ferrari OR when MSc was top - Hakkinen moving to MSc's team; by rights we should not have seen the (then) reigning World Champion move to McLaren, knowing that his entire reputation could be shot to pieces if he gets comprehensively beaten by Hamilton (which was a real possibility). Thankfully for him, this never happened.
There is a big difference between negotiating hard and being disrespectful - and Brawn / Merc were the latter by a long way
You know as well as I do the last bit is complete and utter ****, any other driver and you could possibly be right (but even then it would be dubious), but MS with previous links to Brawn and Merc, with his histroy in F1 - complete and utter ******
1) The fact they were negotiating with at least two drivers at the same time says otherwise (when Rosberg was already signed up) Get it right - they EVENTUALLY offered more than McLaren, and even then I believe it was as good as after JB had already given his word he would sign for the Woking team.
2) Of course Brawn was positive about Button, he was slaughtering the other driver in nearly every race , even if sometimes quali didnt go to plan. Even with no developement on the car, JB bought it home most regularly with a haul of points. After the season, JB had just won both the Championships for the team, of course Brawn would be positive IN PUBLIC.
3) Offer no contract to the reigning World Champ - is that really an option (given how much the advertising would be worth to Merc, personally I dont think so.
4) "Keep on offering more money" - shows how low it must have been originally to finally be above McLaren's offer lol
I dont recall JB ever saying that - sure it wasnt a misquote? Either way I dont believe JB showed a lack of hunger last season, so why not go off his actions rather than what he might have said (as you werent in the room when he was speaking, so no way to verify his intentions)
There is also a big age difference between Lewis / Vettel & JB - lets see if Lewis is still in the sport at 30+ before deciding what he will do/say at that point
I'm not even going to bother going on about Jb's contract negotiations because clearly you were in the room when they were discussed and know the timescale of every phone call to know how much disrespect was shown and how much Brawn wanted shot of him despite all the evidence to the contary.
As for the quote above, I wasn't in the room. It was an interview on BBC last year in a pre race build up, there was no misquoting the words were coming out his mouth.
Personally I don't think JB had a great season last year, his qualifying was as good as how he ended 2009. He didn't get enough out the car in set up and lived off the back of two decent early wins.
I'm expecting the gap to him and Lewis to be much much larger this year. He won't like the rear wing use in qualifying and for someone that likes such a planted car that won't help him quallies at all. While others will be using it all the time to get lower downforce. The rear wing moving will change the cars balance and stability so much and we all know how he likes complete predicatability in a car to have confidence to push.
I hope he has a great year but I can't see it, he has no chance for another title as long as Hamilton is there.
A a side it was interesting to hear Horner echo my sentiments on how long Lewis will stay at Mclaren...
Horner wasted no time in stirring. “Any driver-manager doing his job at the moment has been banging on the door,” he said. “Lewis is a great driver. You would think he’s not going to be happy having another barren year.
“That is not to say we are looking for him to come to our team. We are very happy with the two drivers we have. That is more of a question you would need to put to Lewis.”
It is not the first time Horner has encouraged talk of a move for Hamilton. Last month he said he could understand why people might link McLaren’s golden boy with a move to his team.
Asked whether the team could handle a Vettel-Hamilton combination, he said: “You would certainly envisage it being quite a busy partnership, but you can never rule it out. From my perspective you always want to have the best two drivers.”
See teams speak to drivers all the time, sod all to do with lack of respect for what they have, when Ferrari started speaking to Kimi, which forced MS to retire was it lack of respect or just trying to make sure they weren't left high and dry waiting for their no1 to make a decision. Mercedes had to do the same all leave themselves in a position where Button went and they had no one of any real quality going forward.
Anyway, please God make the Vettel/Hamilton pairing happen.
It was WIDELY reported that Merc were holding extensive talks with both drivers last winter - I dont need to be in the room to know that (as well as the time scale after which JB was signed, MS was signed )
there is no evidence to the contrary - apart from in your head
there is no evidence to the contrary - apart from in your head
Ah right then they definately didn't want JB then because teams never ever speak to more than one driver at a time during contract discussions. They forced him out then by offering more and more money in stages in the hope he would turn it down out of disgust.
Good job he never accepted it.
Good job he never accepted it.