F1 Pre-Season Test Week 4: Barcelona 8th - 11th March

arknor · 11 Mar 2011 at 12:05

ferrari and mclaren also did the first race in last seasons car a few times because they wanted to spend more time developing the new car.

guess you didnt know what either?

yea skeeter your rigtht i shouldnt argue with someone who thinks only hamilton can use kers properly because he played playstation

dannyjo22 · 11 Mar 2011 at 12:57

CaptainRAVE said:
lol, yeah, OK -

Ok then as you are so clever, you tell me how much of that is differing flex and how much is down to different loading on the outside of the car, both in suspension and tyre compression.

The contact patch on the inside wheel doesn't look at that heavy either, perhaps the front right has become light.

People keep grasping to these pictures like they are gospel, you really think Red Bull wants a car with a wing so flexi that the downforce each side changes so easily. I'd like to see other cars going through the exact same bend at a similar speed to see how much of this is flex and how much is just a car characteristic.

Instead all we see is ZOMG look at the flexi wing on the red bull. Unless of course you can tell me how the red bull is passing flex tests with an increased weight?

They passed the flex test, they increased the weight of the test and they still easily passed. Therefore the wing clearly doesn't flex as much as people think and the movement is coming from other areas combined.

FrankJH · 11 Mar 2011 at 13:21

Cant remember the rule - but I could have sworn there was something about the wing has to be above the ground by x amount at all times (irrespective of differing loads), as in that picture its actually touching the ground, its not legal?

edit - in regards to new/old cars , there are still reasons to use the old car on new tyres even if new car is available (hiding a new design element of the car for as long as possible being just one reason ), however as pointed out with on-track testing being so limited these days, most larger teams especially (who have more to loose), its debatable whether hiding the new car has enough beneficial gain in the long run

dannyjo22 · 11 Mar 2011 at 13:24

FrankJH said:
Cant remember the rule - but I could have sworn there was something about the wing has to be above the ground by x amount at all times (irrespective of differing loads), as in that picture its actually touching the ground, its not legal?

It's not touching the ground, you do realise that red line is not infact part of the wing, but a line someone has added to try to prove extra flex in the wing.

Plus it's testing and they can run the car how they like. For all we know they could be running a car biased for certain bends, it wouldn't be the first time.

FrankJH · 11 Mar 2011 at 13:31

dannyjo22 said:
It's not touching the ground, you do realise that red line is not infact part of the wing, but a line someone has added to try to prove extra flex in the wing.

Plus it's testing and they can run the car how they like. For all we know they could be running a car biased for certain bends, it wouldn't be the first time.

laughs - I was actually looking at the front corner of the black strip going down the side, certainly looks like its too close to the ground (even though I admit its not touching, I thought it was at first)

I realise its testing and therefore they can run how they like, but cant see the point of doing that with an element like that. (The measuring devices on McLaren's car I fully appreciate, but on the RB it looks like a fully designed/implemented part whicn imo is altogether differeint)

Skeeter · 11 Mar 2011 at 13:43

It is impossible to measure a car while it is racing, and also way to many factors to get acurate information from pictures of cars racing.

Therefore tests are devised and applied at scrutineering to measure and load parts of the car to ensure they are within regulation. These tests are supposed to replicate real life on track conditions. It has become evident that in this case at least they don't.

Mr Jack · 11 Mar 2011 at 13:50

FrankJH said:
Yours is as much a hunch as Sunama's to be honest

The difference being that I'm basing it on what people have actually said.

I love that McLaren tried something radical, a great pity it isnt even close to working currently

Yeah, me too.

sunama said:
If their design team had informed Whitmarsh that sending out a half built car to the first test would be pointless, then a decision would be taken to either use the old car for the first test and use that test only to evaluate the tyres. OR to take the half built car and to start testing with it immediately.

McLaren obviously chose the former.

And they knew this a month in advance. To such an extent they'd rearrange their test schedule? Rather than try and push the design through so they'd make it? Why would they have declined to put their main drivers in for the November tyre test?

Understand this. No team would ever take an old car to a test, while their new car is available and ready for testing.

No-one has said they did? The argument is over whether they planned their design schedule to deliver after the first test.

If they did something as crazy as this, the people who came up with this bizarre decision deserve to be fired.

It's not that crazy a decision, really. Although I'll agree it appears to have been a bad one. If you slap new tyes with different characteristics onto a car with a radical new bodyplan how can you distinguish the characteristics of the car from those of the tyres? It's a basic principle of experimentation that you control as many variables as possible; the more things are varying the less you can say with any certainty.

sunama · 11 Mar 2011 at 14:14

Mr Jack said:
And they knew this a month in advance. To such an extent they'd rearrange their test schedule? Rather than try and push the design through so they'd make it? Why would they have declined to put their main drivers in for the November tyre test?

It is possible that they did.

The development of the vehicle follows a schedule and if the schedule is beginning to slip/slide/get delayed, then it is quite possible for a company to realise that they are going to be delayed by 7-10 days, in 1 months time.

I think what you are suggesting is that a team cannot know about a delay until they are within a few days of the deadline...this is what I disagree with.

Bear in mind that only McLaren know the full truth. All we can do is play guessing games. The most logical explanation is that they simply did not have their new car ready in time for the first test...plain and simple. So rather than not turn up to the first test, is is logical to use the old car in the first test.

Had they had the new car available to them, they could even have brought 2 cars with them, testing both the new and old cars, simultaneously, at the same track, using the new tyres.

sunama · 11 Mar 2011 at 14:16

Mr Jack said:
It's a basic principle of experimentation that you control as many variables as possible; the more things are varying the less you can say with any certainty.

100% agreed.

Only one problem. We have limited track/test time. Given this limitation, you have to make compromises and rush the testing (information gathering) process.

Kerming · 11 Mar 2011 at 14:25

Mr Jack said:
Now, me, I'm all for Lewis doing what he did. His attitude to racing is one of the reasons he's one of my favourite drivers. But that doesn't change the fact that without those two incidents he would likely have won the World Championship.

Agreed.

Mr Jack · 11 Mar 2011 at 14:25

sunama said:
I think what you are suggesting is that a team cannot know about a delay until they are within a few days of the deadline...this is what I disagree with.

I'm suggesting that a month out they would re-arrange to hit a deadline. That's what you do when you have deadlines. And a month gives plenty of time to do it.

Bear in mind that only McLaren know the full truth. All we can do is play guessing games. The most logical explanation is that they simply did not have their new car ready in time for the first test...plain and simple. So rather than not turn up to the first test, is is logical to use the old car in the first test.

What you are suggesting is that they failed at their development schedule and then made up a lie to cover for it; the alternative being that they are telling the truth about their development plans.

Duke · 11 Mar 2011 at 15:06

Could be a Merc 1-2 today, Rosberg just hopped into the car.

Mr Jack · 11 Mar 2011 at 15:11

Duke said:
Could be a Merc 1-2 today, Rosberg just hopped into the car.

That would be sweet.

Hmmm... that's interesting. Michael set that lap time in the middle of a 3 lap run. I wonder whether that'll have implications for quali, or whether it's just a random blip in testing?

Mr Jack · 11 Mar 2011 at 15:30

Buttons finally out again, but it's been another bad day for McLaren. Engine change apparently; they really didn't need that.

Tweaker · 11 Mar 2011 at 16:07

If we assume McLaren are going to be around 5th fastest, could we have to wait until Turkey to see a increase in performance?

Duke · 11 Mar 2011 at 16:11

Day 4 times

Code:

[b]Pos  Driver              Team/Car              Time       Gap       Laps[/b]
 1.  Michael Schumacher  Mercedes              1m21.249s            67
 2.  Fernando Alonso     Ferrari               1m21.614s  + 0.365s  141
 3.  Nico Rosberg        Mercedes              1m21.788s  + 0.539s  22
 4.  Nick Heidfeld       Renault               1m22.073s  + 0.824s  67
 5.  Rubens Barrichello  Williams-Cosworth     1m22.233s  + 0.984s  89
 6.  Kamui Kobayashi     Sauber-Ferrari        1m22.315s  + 1.066s  98
 7.  Jaime Alguersuari   Toro Rosso-Ferrari    1m22.675s  + 1.426s  72
 8.  Sebastian Vettel    Red Bull-Renault      1m22.933s  + 1.684s  64
 9.  Heikki Kovalainen   Lotus-Renault         1m23.437s  + 2.188s  138
10.  Paul di Resta       Force India-Mercedes  1m23.653s  + 2.404s  42
11.  Adrian Sutil        Force India-Mercedes  1m23.921s  + 2.672s  26
12.  Pastor Maldonado    Williams-Cosworth     1m24.108s  + 2.859s  11
13.  Jenson Button       McLaren-Mercedes      1m25.837s  + 4.588s  57
14.  Jerome D'Ambrosio   Virgin-Cosworth       1m27.375s  + 6.126s  46

utajoker · 11 Mar 2011 at 16:14

i hope mclaren really arnt showing their full hand. it is not looking good at all.

Mr Jack · 11 Mar 2011 at 16:21

Tweaker said:
If we assume McLaren are going to be around 5th fastest, could we have to wait until Turkey to see a increase in performance?

I think they'll be closer to the front than that.

But, anyways, I guess that depends. If it's just a question of lack of running to get the setup/refinements right, then we should see pretty rapid improvements from them, right? But if, as rumoured above, they need to ditch the L-shaped pods and redesign the rear that's going to be an altogether longer process

sunama · 11 Mar 2011 at 16:32

Mr Jack said:
I think they'll be closer to the front than that.

I think so too.

Don't forget that even if they have the 5th best car, you can be certain that due to the quality of their drivers, they will finish higher than 9th/10th.

So what's the verdict on Mercedes? Do they genuinely have a pace setting car?
Those times look pretty impressive to me.

dannyjo22 · 11 Mar 2011 at 16:34

utajoker said:
i hope mclaren really arnt showing their full hand. it is not looking good at all.

Mercedes will be making sure they are not getting the same HP as the full works team anymore. They won't take another embrassing thrashing at the hands of the customer team again