F1 Testing 2015: Week 2 Barcelona (19th - 22nd)
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If he was concussed then it is likely just a sensible precaution to ensure that he has no lasting damage.
Caporegime
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I would say it's extremely unlikely he spun because Vettel saw it and said it was both very strange and that he just turned right into the wall. A spin in that situation is easily explained by going wide, car bouncing and suddenly shooting off in a new direction to the inside, we see that frequently with or without a spin. But it's not strange or difficult to see what happened, Vettel said it was relatively low speed and strange with zero mention of a spin.
I'd also say the majority of the time when a car spins at any real speed then you'd get four pretty distinct skid marks of at least at points looking to be similarly dark, ie when the car is sideways compared to direction it's travelling all four tires should be laying down similar tracks. Those two other skid marks I would say were 99.8% likely to just be people previously lightly locking the inside tire while taking that corner and not at all related to the Alonso accident.
Mostly when you see a spinning car hit a wall the extra force of the spin slapping into the wall will usually cause a car to bounce away from the wall and continue spinning and usually causes a lot more damage.
This still seems odd, at races drivers have had massive shunts and been through the medical centre and back in the garage shortly after. Alonso has, what is reported to be, quie a minor accident and is sedated, air lifted to hospital, given scans and kept in for 2 nights.
The reports and photos seem to show he is ok but still seems a weird reaction to the accident.
The reports and photos seem to show he is ok but still seems a weird reaction to the accident.
Any hint that he had a fit or passed out before the crash would mean his career would be over, instantly. Even if it turned out to not be true the sponsors will have already jumped ship.
2 nights in hospital suggests to me that something happened that they don't yet understand.
Soldato
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How many times have drivers hit something where none of the impact has been absorbed by the crumple zones though? Don't forget that the more spectacular the accident it often means that more energy is being dispersed (again, see Kubica at Montreal for a good example). We've had huge high speed impacts, but the wheels have sheered off and all of the various crash structures have come into effect.
The problem with Alonso's was that it hit with the wheels nearly flush, so pretty much no meaningful damage to the suspension. If the wheels had buckled backwards on impact (as would nearly always happen) then the sidepod crash structure would have come into effect.
Wendlinger, Perez and Button all had large side impacts at the chicane in Monaco where they required hospital treatment, but they had layers of tyres to cushion the impact, and indeed crash structures. Alonso slapped a concrete wall and all of the energy went through the chassis, to which his seat is obviously rigidly bolted.
It was a freak accident, but one which I'm sure will be addressed in the future (how many times have we said that recently?
).
Caporegime
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At least two of those crashes you're talking about at Monaco are them hitting the wall with both tires.... but then continuing at speed and smashing into the barriers somewhat straight on... completely different situation. Had either car missed the collision afterwards the side impact wouldn't have been bad.
The issue here is that unlike those two who ended up hitting a barrier which caused massive and sudden deceleration by hitting something almost directly head on which stopped the body suddenly(regardless of the tires it's going from say 150mph to 5mph in a matter of a few feet which hurts the body so much), that doesn't appear to be the case from any evidence in Alonso's crash.
Even Mclaren are saying he hit the wall and continued sliding along it for 15 seconds, that indicates one of two things, power was stuck on either through mechanical failure or through Alonso holding the accelerator down for a while after impact(on purpose or not), or that the contact was minor/glancing and most of the force wasn't in the impact but dissipated through relatively normal deceleration of the car over 15 seconds.
This is the thing, the car didn't go in at a particularly bad angle and it clearly kept the majority of it's momentum through the initial impact which is what allowed the car to continue to slide for so long and so far. It indicates very little actual energy being absorbed in the initial impact... which is why it's so strange.
EDIT:- looked up the Wendlinger crash, same thing as the other two but worse, hit that same point(the tires after the chicane separating the track from the run off. He hit it almost full speed and the car bounced off but only travelled a few meters. That means his body was decelerated from pretty much full speed out of the tunnel and down the hill in the space of a few meters. That is what kills people though that is much older and much much less safe cars.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x356yu_f1-1994-monaco-op-karl-wendlinger-c_news
that is the best video I could find which shows how little the car moved after impact. Same thing with plane crashes the reason most people die on impact is sudden and massive deceleration. The very reason Perez/Button/Werdlinger's crashes were so bad is precisely what is missing from Alonso's, head on collision(not in terms of orientation of car but in terms of direction of motion to the barrier hit) and massive deceleration. The entire energy of the car is absorb in a split second over a few meters. Alonso's car both didn't hit head on and kept most of it's energy through the crash which is how it could carry on so far. Those are the exact reasons why it's such a small impact and why both a concussion and the situation is so strange.
A car going relatively slowly(Vettel basically said less than 100mph), that hits and maintains enough speed to travel for 15 more seconds has lost little energy in impact. One that is going 200mph and moves only a few metres more has lost almost it's entire energy through impact. These are night and day comparisons.
The issue here is that unlike those two who ended up hitting a barrier which caused massive and sudden deceleration by hitting something almost directly head on which stopped the body suddenly(regardless of the tires it's going from say 150mph to 5mph in a matter of a few feet which hurts the body so much), that doesn't appear to be the case from any evidence in Alonso's crash.
Even Mclaren are saying he hit the wall and continued sliding along it for 15 seconds, that indicates one of two things, power was stuck on either through mechanical failure or through Alonso holding the accelerator down for a while after impact(on purpose or not), or that the contact was minor/glancing and most of the force wasn't in the impact but dissipated through relatively normal deceleration of the car over 15 seconds.
This is the thing, the car didn't go in at a particularly bad angle and it clearly kept the majority of it's momentum through the initial impact which is what allowed the car to continue to slide for so long and so far. It indicates very little actual energy being absorbed in the initial impact... which is why it's so strange.
EDIT:- looked up the Wendlinger crash, same thing as the other two but worse, hit that same point(the tires after the chicane separating the track from the run off. He hit it almost full speed and the car bounced off but only travelled a few meters. That means his body was decelerated from pretty much full speed out of the tunnel and down the hill in the space of a few meters. That is what kills people though that is much older and much much less safe cars.
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x356yu_f1-1994-monaco-op-karl-wendlinger-c_news
that is the best video I could find which shows how little the car moved after impact. Same thing with plane crashes the reason most people die on impact is sudden and massive deceleration. The very reason Perez/Button/Werdlinger's crashes were so bad is precisely what is missing from Alonso's, head on collision(not in terms of orientation of car but in terms of direction of motion to the barrier hit) and massive deceleration. The entire energy of the car is absorb in a split second over a few meters. Alonso's car both didn't hit head on and kept most of it's energy through the crash which is how it could carry on so far. Those are the exact reasons why it's such a small impact and why both a concussion and the situation is so strange.
A car going relatively slowly(Vettel basically said less than 100mph), that hits and maintains enough speed to travel for 15 more seconds has lost little energy in impact. One that is going 200mph and moves only a few metres more has lost almost it's entire energy through impact. These are night and day comparisons.
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Soldato
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I was talking about the impact with the tyre wall, all 3 of which went into it sideways
Alonso didn't hit the wall at any real angle at all - that's what's caused the problem. Apparently peaking at 30g (not an issue in itself - most 'large' crashes peak at bigger than this), the main issue being a sustained impact of at least 15g for 54ms - that a figure that will rarely feature in anyone's life - racing drivers included.
In all of the above cases the tyres and crash structures have bounced the car - absorbing it on the way in, reaching a peak deceleration (which is normally at a very slow speed, well below 50mph) and throwing it back out again. Alonso slapped against something that wouldn't give in something that wouldn't give - that he was a part of. That's the issue.
The problem was that the crash structure wasn't touched. No energy was absorbed at all - the rear suspension deranged a little (and possibly the front), but didn't collapse, and nothing else gave at all. It was probably a nothing crash to view, and in the pictures it looks it, but there was nothing happening between Alonso and the wall. It you stuck a racing seat onto a granite sledge and slapped it into the wall at the speed Alonso did it probably wouldn't be much different.
It's like the late 90's / early 00's Indycar days where every crash which went in rear-first (which seemed like every race) someone was coming away with a back or head injury of some description because the rear of the car, and gearbox in particular, wasn't giving at all - it was just a lump of metal, and most of the force transferred through the chassis to the body of the driver.
The car didn't absorb the impact at all - there were no structures designed to do so. That's been my entire point. However glancing the impact was, the driver took it in near entirety.
But Wendlinger's primary blow was against the tyres, so they absorbed some of the impact. He was absorbed, however little, and bounced.
I had a bike crash starting at 60mph where I hit a grass bank and bounced about 5 metres back onto the road, ending up star-fished. Thankfully I didn't suffer anything other than winding and a fractured little finger at the time, but I still had previously unknown bruises surfacing 2 weeks later. And while a grass bank at ~30-40mph is bloody firm, I'm guessing it's damn cosy compared than hitting a concrete wall at ~70-100mph.
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Caporegime
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Again, the drivers got injured mostly by the deceleration NOT anything else. The tires absorb NONE of the drivers own deceleration, organs moving internally, bones breaking.
THe majority of people who die in things like air crashes die from their own bodies basically tearing themselves apart due to deceleration, it's why the majority who survive any given crashes are kids, and smaller women and men, less body weight, less momentum, less damage from deceleration.
Hitting tires rather than concrete doesn't matter drastically, it certainly helps hugely but it doesn't stop a driver effectively hurting himself, the body doesn't do well decelerating from 100+mph to 0 in a matter of metres, it literally kills people. Hitting the tires prevents(usually) things like car damage and bits of the car breaking and hitting the driver which is one of two major factors that cause damage to drivers, the others being the forces exerted on the body by major deceleration. That can and often does include concussion from the brain literally smashing into your own skull.
You're discounting and ignoring it even though it's the maybe primary cause of damage to drivers, in particular in the three crashes you highlighted. Sideways impact has little to no bearing on the Button/Werdlinger/Perez crash, they were hurt by the massive deceleration. This is what is almost entirely absent in the Alonso situation, as for the 15g sustained for 54ms, I smell BS on that. The bounce off one of those tire walls, the deceleration would take a decent length of time, it's not instant, and through the entire deceleration you would be under significant g-forces.
You're also confusing what I'm saying about absorbing energy.
When a car travelling at high speed smashes into a wall and stops within say half a second, you have huge kinetic energy and it will be expelled over likely less than a second as the car smashes and stops... I'm not talking about which part of the car or driver absorbs that energy but the energy itself being transferred. When a car goes from fast to not moving ALL it's kinetic energy is transferred in that one impact. A car that crashes into a wall but continues moving for 15 seconds... again it doesn't matter which bit absorbs the impact the simple fact is that massively less energy is transferred in the impact.... otherwise the car wouldn't retain the energy to move for 15 more seconds.
There is no comparison between those three crashes and Alonso's, none, the sideways impact wasn't a major factor in any of those three crashes, the primary factor was hitting a barrier that was perpendicular to their direction of travel, the massive deceleration and that damage that can cause, tires or not, those cars stopped in an instant from high speeds. Alonso's crash wasn't the same or remotely comparable, the car hit a wall almost parallel to the direction of travel and stopped 15 seconds after the impact. Force of impact was a TINY fraction of those involved in the other three crashes.
THe majority of people who die in things like air crashes die from their own bodies basically tearing themselves apart due to deceleration, it's why the majority who survive any given crashes are kids, and smaller women and men, less body weight, less momentum, less damage from deceleration.
Hitting tires rather than concrete doesn't matter drastically, it certainly helps hugely but it doesn't stop a driver effectively hurting himself, the body doesn't do well decelerating from 100+mph to 0 in a matter of metres, it literally kills people. Hitting the tires prevents(usually) things like car damage and bits of the car breaking and hitting the driver which is one of two major factors that cause damage to drivers, the others being the forces exerted on the body by major deceleration. That can and often does include concussion from the brain literally smashing into your own skull.
You're discounting and ignoring it even though it's the maybe primary cause of damage to drivers, in particular in the three crashes you highlighted. Sideways impact has little to no bearing on the Button/Werdlinger/Perez crash, they were hurt by the massive deceleration. This is what is almost entirely absent in the Alonso situation, as for the 15g sustained for 54ms, I smell BS on that. The bounce off one of those tire walls, the deceleration would take a decent length of time, it's not instant, and through the entire deceleration you would be under significant g-forces.
You're also confusing what I'm saying about absorbing energy.
When a car travelling at high speed smashes into a wall and stops within say half a second, you have huge kinetic energy and it will be expelled over likely less than a second as the car smashes and stops... I'm not talking about which part of the car or driver absorbs that energy but the energy itself being transferred. When a car goes from fast to not moving ALL it's kinetic energy is transferred in that one impact. A car that crashes into a wall but continues moving for 15 seconds... again it doesn't matter which bit absorbs the impact the simple fact is that massively less energy is transferred in the impact.... otherwise the car wouldn't retain the energy to move for 15 more seconds.
There is no comparison between those three crashes and Alonso's, none, the sideways impact wasn't a major factor in any of those three crashes, the primary factor was hitting a barrier that was perpendicular to their direction of travel, the massive deceleration and that damage that can cause, tires or not, those cars stopped in an instant from high speeds. Alonso's crash wasn't the same or remotely comparable, the car hit a wall almost parallel to the direction of travel and stopped 15 seconds after the impact. Force of impact was a TINY fraction of those involved in the other three crashes.
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Soldato
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What the hell? They're not a floating entity sitting on the top of the car. The driver doesn't just continue as the car slows. They react as the car reacts, so if the car decelerates, so does the driver and his organs, some less so than others (hence internal and brain injuries), but the body doesn't just continue as the car is gradually slowed, having nothing but a peak force - the body (and its organs) wants to, but that's the point of crash structures, be they trackside or built into the car.
Of course organs move in the body, but if I gave you the choice of hitting a vast wall of polysterene beads at 40mph or a 3ft steel barrier at 20mph, what would you choose?
I'm not even going to bother reading the rest of your post.
Just out of interest, what do you think happened to Alonso for him to suffer such injuries?
Doctors are bound by law (at least in the UK) to break Doctor/patient confidentially if they know someone has failed to sacrifice their driving license after suffering a seizure or fit. It would be impossible for them to lie.
What they can do is try incredibly hard to keep all rumours and speculation out of the press until they know for certain. If Alonso can't remember what happened, and they can't tell from the car, then it explains them keeping him in for tests. They need to make 1000% sure it wasn't a blackout.