F1 Testing 2015: Week 2 Barcelona (19th - 22nd)

Again, the drivers got injured mostly by the deceleration NOT anything else. The tires absorb NONE of the drivers own deceleration, organs moving internally, bones breaking.

THe majority of people who die in things like air crashes die from their own bodies basically tearing themselves apart due to deceleration, it's why the majority who survive any given crashes are kids, and smaller women and men, less body weight, less momentum, less damage from deceleration.

Hitting tires rather than concrete doesn't matter drastically, it certainly helps hugely but it doesn't stop a driver effectively hurting himself, the body doesn't do well decelerating from 100+mph to 0 in a matter of metres, it literally kills people. Hitting the tires prevents(usually) things like car damage and bits of the car breaking and hitting the driver which is one of two major factors that cause damage to drivers, the others being the forces exerted on the body by major deceleration. That can and often does include concussion from the brain literally smashing into your own skull.

You're discounting and ignoring it even though it's the maybe primary cause of damage to drivers, in particular in the three crashes you highlighted. Sideways impact has little to no bearing on the Button/Werdlinger/Perez crash, they were hurt by the massive deceleration. This is what is almost entirely absent in the Alonso situation, as for the 15g sustained for 54ms, I smell BS on that. The bounce off one of those tire walls, the deceleration would take a decent length of time, it's not instant, and through the entire deceleration you would be under significant g-forces.

You're also confusing what I'm saying about absorbing energy.

When a car travelling at high speed smashes into a wall and stops within say half a second, you have huge kinetic energy and it will be expelled over likely less than a second as the car smashes and stops... I'm not talking about which part of the car or driver absorbs that energy but the energy itself being transferred. When a car goes from fast to not moving ALL it's kinetic energy is transferred in that one impact. A car that crashes into a wall but continues moving for 15 seconds... again it doesn't matter which bit absorbs the impact the simple fact is that massively less energy is transferred in the impact.... otherwise the car wouldn't retain the energy to move for 15 more seconds.

There is no comparison between those three crashes and Alonso's, none, the sideways impact wasn't a major factor in any of those three crashes, the primary factor was hitting a barrier that was perpendicular to their direction of travel, the massive deceleration and that damage that can cause, tires or not, those cars stopped in an instant from high speeds. Alonso's crash wasn't the same or remotely comparable, the car hit a wall almost parallel to the direction of travel and stopped 15 seconds after the impact. Force of impact was a TINY fraction of those involved in the other three crashes.

What about sudden direction change causing concussion to Alonso? He hits the wall, car changes lateral direction suddenly causing the injury. Due to the angle the car hits the wall nearly all the energy is transferred into changing (lateral) direction rather damaging the car or bringing it to a stop. Injury isn't caused by sudden deceleration but rather by sudden direction change which results in his head moving around and possible concussion.

Just a theory.
 
If you fall off your bike and concuss yourself then the hospital will keep you in over night. It doesn't surprise me that a multi-million pound asset involved in a hundred mile an hour crash is getting more circumspect treatment from his private doctors. I don't see any need for conspiracy theories.
 
Wow it's all got a bit tin foil hat here. Heavy crash, few nights in hospital as a pre-caution. Mixed media messages. You can tell it's close season and people have run out of topics. I think Sunama is needed to get things moving again....
 
What about sudden direction change causing concussion to Alonso? He hits the wall, car changes lateral direction suddenly causing the injury. Due to the angle the car hits the wall nearly all the energy is transferred into changing (lateral) direction rather damaging the car or bringing it to a stop. Injury isn't caused by sudden deceleration but rather by sudden direction change which results in his head moving around and possible concussion.

Just a theory.

Just a point change of direction is sudden deceleration ;) If you're going one direction at 50mph then start going another direction your body goes through a serious deceleration in one direction then acceleration in another, just technical term vs non technical description and you're right that can easily concuss someone.

However it appears he hit a wall that was maybe not parallel to his direction of travel but certainly wasn't perpendicular and he continued to travel along the wall. Had he spun across the track violently hit the wall and rebounded and spun the back across the track then the change of direction would have been significant.

I'm not saying he couldn't be concussed/injured by hitting a wall, just that it's still a fairly minor shunt because most of the energy was maintained in through impact as the car travelled for a very significant length of time after impact. That gav thinks it's a terrible crash because it hit sideways while talking about three other crashes that "hit sideways" is what I'm debating/arguing about because it's twaddle. Those three crashes would only be similar if Alonso's car had effectively stopped on impact with significantly worse deceleration/change of direction and for that to happen the wall would have needed to be almost perpendicular to the direction the car was travelling.

The crashes aren't remotely comparable, he's saying those three other crashes the cars hit the barrier sideways and the drivers were hurt thus they are the same. In those SPECIFIC crashes the fact that they hit sideways is neither here nor there, that they hit a barrier and stopped almost instantly is 98% of the reason they got hurt, they would have been equally as hurt had they crashed nose first into those barriers.
 
I'm not saying he couldn't be concussed/injured by hitting a wall, just that it's still a fairly minor shunt because most of the energy was maintained in through impact as the car travelled for a very significant length of time after impact. That gav thinks it's a terrible crash because it hit sideways while talking about three other crashes that "hit sideways" is what I'm debating/arguing about because it's twaddle. Those three crashes would only be similar if Alonso's car had effectively stopped on impact with significantly worse deceleration/change of direction and for that to happen the wall would have needed to be almost perpendicular to the direction the car was travelling.

The crashes aren't remotely comparable, he's saying those three other crashes the cars hit the barrier sideways and the drivers were hurt thus they are the same. In those SPECIFIC crashes the fact that they hit sideways is neither here nor there, that they hit a barrier and stopped almost instantly is 98% of the reason they got hurt, they would have been equally as hurt had they crashed nose first into those barriers.
His forward momentum has zero impact on the lateral force. All it shows was that not all of the energy was dissipated, which isn't a surprise given that there was nothing other than friction to absorb it.

I used the Monaco accidents, not as a comparison, but as a means of showing that the protection the drivers have works. They were all far more viscous crashes, and perhaps in Perez's and Wendlinger's cases came as a result of the head striking the tyres rather than the rapid deceleration, but had it been a solid concrete wall rather than armco and tyre barriers they almost certainly wouldn't be with us now, even if the suspension collapsed and the side-impact protection did its job.
 
I saw this posted elsewhere:

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/9729157/parallels-drawn-with-alonso-crash

And it's a bit interesting, if Alonso had a similar spin but instead of locking up and hitting the wall at an angle it 'snapped' back to hit exactly side on, which would fit with the lack of damage, then that could be a fairly nasty side impact, with instant deceleration of the lateral movement and no real safety to prevent injuries from that, the HANS device only works to prevent the neck snapping forwards.

EDIT: But that's all pointless conjecture, hope he's fine and released soon of course :)
 
The hospital is completely independent of the McLaren and FIA etc.. They will do what they think is best for patient. Regardless of what McLaren or anyone else wants.

Wrong. (Unless Alonso is declared as mentally incompetent to make the decision or has asked for the doctor to let him die - neither of which, is the case here).

Well of course Alonso could discharge himself if he wanted, he won't be kept there against his will! ;)

Correct.

Doctors can only advise what they feel is the right course of action. The patient is ultimately in charge of what actually happens.
 
Wrong. (Unless Alonso is declared as mentally incompetent to make the decision or has asked for the doctor to let him die - neither of which, is the case here).

Exactly, you've only proved my point that the hospital isn't under any influence by the FIA or McLaren. They will suggest what's best for the patient, and the patient will decide what he wants to do. If he can't his next of kin will and f there is no next of kin. Nowhere does FIA or McLaren even come in to it.
 
Hmm.

McLaren confirmed that he was concious before the crash, braking and down shifting, but they haven't confirmed he was concious after impact. If you couple that with him being extracted from the car rather then getting himself out, the fact he's still in hospital 3 days later, and that it took 15 seconds for the car to stop which suggests it was just rolling along on its own without any driver input, it makes me think the impact was a serious sideways clout that knocked him out.
 
Seems certain to miss the last test at this rate. That'll make for a very tough Melbourne for him, as if it wasn't already difficult enough for McLaren. Perhaps K-Mag will be back...
 
In order to provide the privacy and tranquillity required to facilitate a peaceful recuperation, he is being kept in hospital for further observation, and to recover from the effects of the medication that successfully managed his routine sedation yesterday.

Wow, that is some clever PR work going on there. Almost as good as the 'gusty wind' that made him crash.
 
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Seems certain to miss the last test at this rate. That'll make for a very tough Melbourne for him, as if it wasn't already difficult enough for McLaren. Perhaps K-Mag will be back...

Yup, although without looking it up he got a fair few more laps than Button has had iirc, getting a bit luckier with "good" days in the car... well, can pretty much say the only day Mclaren got a fair number of laps in.

Though even then because of the seal issues they were running reduced or weird ers modes so the car wouldn't have been really near it's normal operating feel. They've done little setup work and I've seen today that even their faster runs were extremely inconsistent, doing a fast lap then 1-2 slow laps then a fast lap... and fast lap for Mclaren which was way down. He certainly won't have a firm grasp of how that car feels at race pace nor any experience of long runs or how the car runs in a consistent way.

One of the biggest issues the teams faced last year and again this year is driveability. Red Bull have said effectively the car has more power but the power delivery is inconsistent so needs work to become smooth and good. Same happened with all three engines last year, they sounded all over the place in the first test but pretty much each engine smoothed out over the tests(Merc fastest, Ferrari behind then, Renault last to get the engine sounded smooth). Same happening again this year, Mclaren are looking like they'll turn up in Australia with inconsistent power delivery, they just won't have enough running to get all the kinks out.
 
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