F1 - Then vs. Now

F1 definitely sells cars and create brand awareness. Its advertising.

Are you suggesting that companies which spend millions on putting their names on F1 cars, are wasting their money?

Yes and they know it, go back and read the figures when renault won two world titles on the trot. The guy in charge wanted to pull out citing the sales figures prior to winning two titles and during and after the titles.

It did nothing for their sales in that time. They already had brand awareness and were never going tooo crack america mo matter how many titles they win.

Ferrari will sell every car they want to without being in F1.
BMW's sales didn't change despite sucking in F1.
Honda and Toyota stinking the joint up does nothing for sales, a media report on dodgy brakes does far more damage.

F1 has so little impact on car sales and brand aweness anymore, there is far more media to encourage us on brands and reliability. TV and magazine and the internet. F1 has miniscule effects on anyone buying a car.

Especially for supercar manufacturers. Porsche still sell every car they ever want to make as would Ferrari without F1.
 
f1 has massive brand awareness...
europe and america arent importaint.

the chinese GP = massive awareness in a massively growing market
the indian GP = massive awareness in a massively growing market.
well worth the 200 odd million someone like mercedes plows into f1 each year a lot of which they will get back via sponsorship anyway
 
F1 has so little impact on car sales and brand aweness anymore, ...

Lets assume you are correct.

Why then, are companies prepared to pump so much money into F1?

Why is it for example, that tobacco advertisers only stopped advertising on F1 cars because the FIA prohibited it?

If F1 advertising makes no difference to sales (cars/products/services), why are companies pumping so much money into F1 sponsorship deals?
 
I think you've just demonstrated perfectly how people exaggerate when it comes to F1 'in the old days'. Considering most of your list wasn't racing ten years ago (the DFV last raced in 1985!) and you have just printed off a set of random F1 engines, many of which weren't racing in the same year, to try and prove a point hoping that no one would realise.

You what? :confused:

Where did I write DFV? You're right, obviously, that the venerable Cosworth DFV left F1 in 1985. I believe I wrote DFR, which didn't share a great deal with the DFV family beyond the 90° V8 layout.

That list is all the engines that took part in at least one race in the 1991 season, according to the cheat sheet on my computer. If it's wrong, then please - point out where and I'll update it. Or alternatively, just accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about. Your call :D
 
Oops my bad, you didn't say DFV. But I hate to tell you this, we're old and 1991 wasn't 10 years ago. ;)

To be honest I'd prefer competitive engines, many of the engines you mention weren't worth their weight in poo. I do miss the different sounds though but we have a much more competitive series now than there was in 1991 which really wasn't a particularly great year.
 
... 1991 which really wasn't a particularly great year.

How can you say that?

1991 was a vintage year. :p

Mansell (one of only 2 drivers who stood a chance against Senna) returned to Williams.
Williams had one of the best car designers in the business - Mr Newey.
D.Hill (one of the best test drivers in the business), was testing for Williams.
Patrese (one of the most experienced drivers in F1), as No.2 driver to Mansell.
Renault (hell bent on beating Honda).

Senna, the reigning champion, in blistering form.
McLaren, the reigning constructors champions and widely recognised as the best team in F1.
Honda determined to stay ahead of the competition and spending big money.
Berger - very good friends with Senna and doing a great job as McLaren's No.2.

1991 was a titanic battle which saw McLaren dominate the first half of the season and then (given their top personnel), Williams were gradually clawing their way back and ahead of McLaren.

Williams' ascension only came to halt in 1991 because of Mansell's crash.

It really was a case where we had individual battles:

Williams vs McLaren
Mansell vs Senna
Patrese vs Berger
Honda vs Renault.

For both Williams and McLaren, all the personnel, for each team, were pulling in the same direction, with very little in-fighting.

If you were fan of Senna, Mansell, McLaren or Williams, there is no way that you could say that 1991 wasn't a good year.
 
Oops my bad, you didn't say DFV. But I hate to tell you this, we're old and 1991 wasn't 10 years ago. ;)

I know, I know. Not sure why I typed ten. I did mean twenty, guess I was thinking about something else at the time!

I do miss the different sounds though

That's pretty much the point I was going for.

I miss hearing the difference between a V8, a V10 and a V12 flashing past the grandstand. I miss seeing more powerful but thirstier V12s going up against more frugal, lighter but less powerful V8s and having V10s in the mix that offer *some* of the advantages of both camps. I even miss the comedy of seeing someone try and build a real oddball like the Life L190 W16.

Ferrari abandoned the V12 for '96 when the FIA made it clear that they'd be mandating V10s soon. By '98, everyone was running a V10 and the only one that sounded out of the ordinary was the Merc unit (beryllium alloys and ultra-high revs :)). The sport hasn't sounded the same ever since.
 
Lets assume you are correct.

Why then, are companies prepared to pump so much money into F1?

Why is it for example, that tobacco advertisers only stopped advertising on F1 cars because the FIA prohibited it?

If F1 advertising makes no difference to sales (cars/products/services), why are companies pumping so much money into F1 sponsorship deals?

To compete, cigerette sponsorship was a world apart from selling cars. F1 racing did an article where BAR visited parts of asia and Ricardo Zonta was more popular than Jacques because he drove the 555 car.

They know it has no bearing on car sales anymore, which is why one by one they have been pulling out. The investment in for what they get out of it no longer adds up. Gone are the days when a ciggie company paid for them to go racing.

That sponsorship money has largely never been replaced and the car manufacturers have had to add more and more to the budget.

Someone mentioned Mercedes, well there have already been rumours all is not well at mercedes and the costs.

I will look at their worldwide car sales later to see how many more units they have shifted being in f1.
 
Case on point, when the Subaru WRC team lost the 555 sponsorship they were going to change the colours of the car but the fans said they linked with the colour of the car more than the sponsor, even though the car was navy blue because of the sponsor. So the car stayed Navy Blue.

If cigarette sponsorship is banned, how do Ferrari get away with calling themselves Scuderia Marlboro Ferrari, or whatever they call themselves?

F1 and the manufacturers are very keen on moving into emerging markets, hence why they keep going to China, they've moved into Asia in a big way and are now in India this year. All of those are emerging car markets with car ownership in China rising faster than anywhere else on earth atm. Yes F1 manfacturers want to be in the US and from next year they'll get their wish, but when they did have a race in the US when the race was in town if you didn't know it was on, you'd have a hard time realising it even if you were in Indianapolis itself. There's little to no general interest in F1 AT ALL in the US, only with the die hard fans. until that changes and perhaps they get an American driver (which few teams will take a chance on, because there's little interest and therefore very few sponsors, and like it or not most teams that will take a chance will take a pay driver who's as good as any non pay driver. Mclaren took a chance on a US driver once. What a disaster that was!) that's not going to change. The race in Austin in 2012 will be well attended by the F1 fans in the US (and there are many of them) but in terms of national knowledge and TV exposure you won't hear a peep on the national networks, sports shows or on ESPN.
 
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F1 and the manufacturers are very keen on moving into emerging markets, hence why they keep going to China, they've moved into Asia in a big way and are now in India this year. All of those are emerging car markets with car ownership in China rising faster than anywhere else on earth atm.

I think you overstate the interest in F1 in the developing countries.
China has had the F1 since 2004, attendance has declined every year, attendance is now half what it was for the opening race, More Chinese people might be buying cars, but they aren't interested in motorsport. Not sure how true this is but apparently to increase the crowds school children were bussed in to fill the seats for the race days over the last few years!

Same in Korea, and no doubt the same in India, but there is an Indian driver on the grid and a team too, so fingers crossed!

/JRS+others I'm not an F1 history buff, and seeing a Lamborghini engine in F1 I wanted to have a little read (it was new to me) From what I found it looks like that engine was canned in 1994 after rule changes, which makes me think about the 'F1 glory days thing' JRS says '10 years ago....' but really it was 20 years ago, time flies, people forget that. I think if you had a true list of engines on the grid from actually 10 years ago, 2001, you'd see a steady decline, jumping from a list of 13 to 4 wouldn't happen in just 10 years. But I agree with the point, we need more variety!
 
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JRS says '10 years ago....' but really it was 20 years ago, time flies, people forget that. I think if you had a true list of engines on the grid from actually 10 years ago, 2001, you'd see a steady decline, jumping from a list of 13 to 4 wouldn't happen in just 10 years. But I agree with the point, we need more variety!

Like I said, my brain was supposed to be aiming for twenty but my hands typed ten :)

There were seven engine manufacturers in the sport ~5 years ago - Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault, Cosworth, Toyota, BMW, Honda. Honda pulled out at the end of '08, Toyota and BMW left a year later. Cosworth went away for a bit and only came back in because the new entrants were told they had to use them. But it's not like there's much point in having more manufacturers involved if they're all having to build substantially the same engine.
 
I wouldn't say it is cheap, but I would say that it is about the only sport which is viewed globally, throughout the year. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any sport which falls in this category.

If you are a company looking to advertise globally, an F1 car is a fantastic place to display your company name.

If anything football has a shorter summer than F1 has had winters (10 weeks or there about compared to F1's 16 weeks or more, I know this has come down much more but football still has a shorter holiday even this season)

The Premier League IS viewed globally - I would guess F1 still has a bigger fan base, but I dont know the actual figures but I doubt very much its as outbalanced as you suggest :)

An F1 car is a fabulous place to advertise, but I wouldnt say a football shirt is considerably worse (and a top club plays two to three times the amount of matches per season as there are F1 races /season)

Especially for supercar manufacturers. Porsche still sell every car they ever want to make as would Ferrari without F1.

Hyperthetical question time - I dont believe there is a right or wrong answer , but the likes of Porsche and Ferrari race because its in their company blood, and they sell cars so they can race some more.

You are undoubtedly correct that both companies could probably sell a lot more cars if they wanted to, but I was also thinking that IF they decided to quit the major motorsports they were in (as Porsche hasnt been in F1 for donkeys years) whether they would loose touch with their customers and demand would go down accordingly.

I know Audi do a lot of motorsport (esp 24hr) - but Ive always thought it a pity that Porsche as a brand have been nowhere in motorsport for a while (not includiing support races and so forth).

If F1 advertising makes no difference to sales (cars/products/services), why are companies pumping so much money into F1 sponsorship deals?

Nearly every winter in the mid-late 90's there used to be a comparison about how much a sidepod spot cost for x or y team. These would routinely go for £10'sm a season for Williams and McLaren (when williams was a front running team anyway). Its seemingly a lot rarer to see anything like this anymore - but the impression I got (maybe wasnt helped by that awful Honda Earth car which never had sponsorship) was that F1 sponsorship was a lot worse than it was 15 or so years ago (ie the same car real-estate actually costs less these days than a number of years ago)

Obviously there are stil a lot of companies willing to do sponsorship this way, I just had a feeling for the last 4 or 5 seasons the money hasnt been as good as it used to be
 
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I think you overstate the interest in F1 in the developing countries.
China has had the F1 since 2004, attendance has declined every year, attendance is now half what it was for the opening race, More Chinese people might be buying cars, but they aren't interested in motorsport. Not sure how true this is but apparently to increase the crowds school children were bussed in to fill the seats for the race days over the last few years!

Same in Korea, and no doubt the same in India, but there is an Indian driver on the grid and a team too, so fingers crossed!

/JRS+others I'm not an F1 history buff, and seeing a Lamborghini engine in F1 I wanted to have a little read (it was new to me) From what I found it looks like that engine was canned in 1994 after rule changes, which makes me think about the 'F1 glory days thing' JRS says '10 years ago....' but really it was 20 years ago, time flies, people forget that. I think if you had a true list of engines on the grid from actually 10 years ago, 2001, you'd see a steady decline, jumping from a list of 13 to 4 wouldn't happen in just 10 years. But I agree with the point, we need more variety!

F1 moving into new markets isn't all about just F1 though. Manufacturers want to move into new markets because it gives them a chance to entertain bigwigs who can do them good deals and tax breaks so they can sell more cars or soft drinks.
 
Nah, Oddball is an H16 like the BRM

:D

Huge power, but peaky as all hell* :D Much like the V16 that BRM tried in the early days of the World Championship. The V16 didn't make any power at all until over 8000 rpm, then all hell broke loose - 1.5 litres, 16 cylinders, and a socking great 2-stage blower, it was always going to be fruity once on song!

Simon Taylor drove a BRM V16 GP car for Classic And Sports Car magazine a while back (Tom Wheatcroft was still alive, so it was before October '09). Fabulous car, and yet quite crap. It's a curious one!




* - and with a centre of gravity like you find on a double-decker bus :D
 
Huge power, but peaky as all hell* :D Much like the V16 that BRM tried in the early days of the World Championship. The V16 didn't make any power at all until over 8000 rpm, then all hell broke loose - 1.5 litres, 16 cylinders, and a socking great 2-stage blower, it was always going to be fruity once on song!

Simon Taylor drove a BRM V16 GP car for Classic And Sports Car magazine a while back (Tom Wheatcroft was still alive, so it was before October '09). Fabulous car, and yet quite crap. It's a curious one!




* - and with a centre of gravity like you find on a double-decker bus :D

What a sound that V16 made, though!
 
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