Failures of West in Eastern Europe

But the EU is a union of sovereign nations isn't it? that's what remainers like to argue.

For Poland, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and the likes it's a Union only when they need to take/steal the EU funds, which belong to all the EU citizens / not only their oligarchs and the companies connected to the oligarchs.
They are sovereign in all the other cases when they don't want to conform to their obligations as member states.


Are you saying that the goals of the EU take precedence over the policies national governments are democratically elected on? it sounds to me like the EU is incompatible with the Democratic process unless a country elects one of their puppet leaders. The UK is attempting to leave and become a sovereign nation and the EU still wants to dictate how we must operate.

There is information about falsified elections in some of these countires - so yes, their governments are or aren't democratically elected.

Also, there is an institution called the European Parliament and every member states sends people to participate. And the European Parliament votes and accepts the rules for all.

So, it's a contradiction - you want your sovereignty but you want to be in a Union. Impossible.
 
?

Perhaps there's a difference i'm not seeing.


There is.

Aside from the massively obvious issue of controlling numbers freedom of movement as it stands allows ANYONE of all levels to move anywhere in the EU ridiculously easily.

Why bother being a proactive but low practically skilled entrepreneur and stay in Poland when you can open a cash based Massage parlour in London as an example. Poland et al hemorrhages these people and they are the backbone of the future economy.

Your failure of comprehension probably stems from the fasle assumption that the best and brightest are always people that would look great on visa application when in fact a massive part of all economies are startup companies from people who simply wish to work for themselves (the number of business owners in this country who are worth milions but have no formal qualifications is stagering).
 
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Except sectors like mobile telephony (dominated by several multi-national supercorps), radio and television, in some cases if you try to open a bar, your neighbours will set you a bomb surprise and similar very "interesting adventures".
 
Apart from nukes should we be that scared of Russia, it's always Russia this, Russia that. It has 144 million people. Relatively small compared to the EU and US combined. As soon as nukes get fired we've entered into a whole new era of history so who's going to be unwise enough to do that. So are we so worried about the rest of their armed forces?

In your opinion why are Russia always made out to be the boogie man?

This. I thought they have a poor navy, that barely rivals Italy. Seldom are they the aggressor, and I doubt they'd be able to wage war with any chance of winning against a decent modern force, like France for instance, or large militaries like Turkey.
 
There is.

Aside from the massively obvious issue of controlling numbers freedom of movement as it stands allows ANYONE of all levels to move anywhere in the EU ridiculously easily.

Why bother being a proactive but low practically skilled entrepreneur and stay in Poland when you can open a cash based Massage parlour in London as an example. Poland et al hemorrhages these people and they are the backbone of the future economy.

Your failure of comprehension probably stems from the fasle assumption that the best and brightest are always people that would look great on visa application when in fact a massive part of all economies are startup companies from people who simply wish to work for themselves (the number of business owners in this country who are worth milions but have no formal qualifications is stagering).

Innovation is still the most important source of economic growth and that usually requires a degree/lengthy vocational experience. I suppose you're talking about the people that would otherwise provide investment/platforms for innovators to actually get their ideas into practical consumer products? If that's the case, then I still think that the loss of academics is rather insurmountable for these countries.

Anyway, full knowledge of what would occur with free movement Poland still chose to join the EU, it's not exactly been awful for them either considering their growth compared to the likes of Belarus or Ukraine, though to be fair those countries have an investment killer next door... so maybe it's not the fairest of comparisons. I'm not sure that growth would have been so pronounced if they never joined, but that's the realm of the hypothetical. Regardless, the hubris present in the EU needs ejecting rather soon if it hopes to continue in some form, particularly the hubris that is the Eurozone.
 
Belarus is not going to go the way of Ukraine. It's not pro EU or anti Russia there, they just want Lukashenko out. Belarusians are generally still friendly towards Russia and I don't think they would end up going more Pro EU if he goes.
 
Belarus absolutely doesn't have the recipe to become worse than Ukraine. Current situation there is neither pro EU agenda, nor does it have historical grievances and divisious that even Putin can ignite like in Ukraine.

Not to mention Putin really doesn't want another conflict to manage over there although he is in a bit of a pickle with Lukashenko.

On one hand he can win a lot of cookie points with the population if he himself helps overthrow him (they aren't exactly friends). On the other, he really can't have a precedent in Eastern Europe of people overthrowing the government, he isn't as popular with the common folk as a lot of people in the West would believe.
 
Innovation is still the most important source of economic growth and that usually requires a degree/lengthy vocational experience.

Neither of those things would automatically qualify anyone for admission under a points based system. Typically, if not wealthy then the job skills must be in high demand - it's that simple.

I suppose you're talking about the people that would otherwise provide investment/platforms for innovators to actually get their ideas into practical consumer products? If that's the case, then I still think that the loss of academics is rather insurmountable for these countries.

I'm quite literally talking about specifically what I have said in my post. Simple examples would be Mike Ashley or Richard Branson in this country but more pertinently we'd be looking at everything from shop keepers to massage parlours and clothing shops...not innovative really but, when successful earn more than the average salary....SMBs...are the basis for ALL economies.

Quite frankly there is no debate here - I live in London and I see it all the time. Their exodus has been great for the UK but bad for their countries of origin. They saw the UK and said not only have they got a much larger economy but the exchange rate is amazing so why stay at home when the bright lights of London beckon.

Just because Eastern Europe is still growing is not indicative that 'they've done great anyway' because those nations are very far behind indeed.

As for the part I've highlighted in bold that has nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion or anything I've said...to be honest it really just sounds like the typical waffle I read on these forums again and again...the pseudo-intellectual babble of someone trying to mask the fact you've picked me up on something without thinking it through and now feel the need to try and pass yourself off as a deep thinker. Quite why you've equated the well skilled to academics I don't know...there are millions of degree educated people in this country who would not qualify for emigration to other western nations without a strong sponsor it's not that simple.
 
This. I thought they have a poor navy, that barely rivals Italy. Seldom are they the aggressor, and I doubt they'd be able to wage war with any chance of winning against a decent modern force, like France for instance, or large militaries like Turkey.

Russia's [active] military is actually on par, give or take, with Turkey (not including strategic weapons). They have a ton of older hardware mothballed but still could be brought into operation quite quickly so if they did go on a rapid offensive (which is highly unlikely) most likely their meat grinder would steam roll a lot of Europe before a response could be mounted but highly unlikely to be able to sustain the logistics to win out in the longer run - Western nations would burn a lot of their high end hardware, with a lot of what would have been easily avoided early losses with better preparedness, stalling the advance due to a mixture of poor preparedness and complacency/hubris.

Ultimately it doesn't really achieve much for Russia - even victory would be hugely costly for what they could hold onto, wiping out any real gains, without the ability to actually hold all the territory they'd overrun (and likely leave them fairly weakened, vulnerable if China or the US, etc. decided to move against them).

EDIT: Something that concerns Russia more than our nuclear weapons even is our ability to wage war half-way across the globe - part of the reason they got involved with Syria was to improve their capabilities there and something they'd struggle with immensely with any assault on Europe - a smaller but more advanced and hard hitting force that can outmanoeuvre them strategically is a big threat so it saddens me to see how increasingly it is undervalued and reduced in this country.
 
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Small hard hitting forces are good until the enemy has such a massive manpower and firepower advantage.

Germany in ww2.

EU nations wouldn't last long against a full Russian military onslaught on land.
We have what,90 heavy guns and a few mlrs units... probably enough ammo to last 1 day.

Air war is different however and Russia would be at a major disadvantage I feel.

Never going to happen due to nukes and linked economics so not to worry.
 
Russia's [active] military is actually on par, give or take, with Turkey (not including strategic weapons). They have a ton of older hardware mothballed but still could be brought into operation quite quickly so if they did go on a rapid offensive (which is highly unlikely) most likely their meat grinder would steam roll a lot of Europe before a response could be mounted but highly unlikely to be able to sustain the logistics to win out in the longer run - Western nations would burn a lot of their high end hardware, with a lot of what would have been easily avoided early losses with better preparedness, stalling the advance due to a mixture of poor preparedness and complacency/hubris.

Ultimately it doesn't really achieve much for Russia - even victory would be hugely costly for what they could hold onto, wiping out any real gains, without the ability to actually hold all the territory they'd overrun (and likely leave them fairly weakened, vulnerable if China or the US, etc. decided to move against them).

EDIT: Something that concerns Russia more than our nuclear weapons even is our ability to wage war half-way across the globe - part of the reason they got involved with Syria was to improve their capabilities there and something they'd struggle with immensely with any assault on Europe - a smaller but more advanced and hard hitting force that can outmanoeuvre them strategically is a big threat so it saddens me to see how increasingly it is undervalued and reduced in this country.

People forget that major sticking point is the morale and ability to take huge losses while thinking you're fighting for a right cause. Russia will NOT invade western Europe at least as it is now. Russia does not need to be more powerful than whole nato combined to do this. All they need to do is sell the war to their population, which would allow ability to take huge losses (exactly what they are doing). Create a rift in west/east europe societies so the help would be minimal (exactly what they are doing). And there you go.

Again, given how Hungary, Poland is turning back on western values, will you or an American be conscripted happily without huge backlash to defend Poland? All they have to do is have enough power to send back couple thousand western NATO soldiers back in quick succession and possibly force a conscription to knock out any major wind.

Also given US performance with covid PPE in Europe... If current trend sticks I don't think we should rely on them too much either to come running in high water. Unless Ivans are going to start crossing over the channel.

Don't forget France in WW2, what a population that has no desire to fight can achieve.

On top of it all, Russian millitary is designed ultimately to combat America rather than anything else. That is why they are so heavily invested in their AA systems and hunter submarines for aircraft carriers.

I see the western world collapsing to smaller and smaller time-scales. This administration, Next administration. This quarter, second quarter etc. Russia under putin is playing a game decades ahead and it really worries me. We need to kick out a stool under putin before its too late. It has to be done by changing russian population minds - not anything else will work.

Finally why would Russia do this? Its not for land, its a culmination point of years of propaganda. Such what Brexit vote was. The writing is on the wall everywhere but people keep ignoring it.
 
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The biggest failure was the fall of Poland and most of Germany to the ussr in ww2.

The whole reason we declared war was German invasion of Poland, yet wben the ussr invaded we left them to die...
 
Small hard hitting forces are good until the enemy has such a massive manpower and firepower advantage.

Germany in ww2.

EU nations wouldn't last long against a full Russian military onslaught on land.
We have what,90 heavy guns and a few mlrs units... probably enough ammo to last 1 day.

Air war is different however and Russia would be at a major disadvantage I feel.

Never going to happen due to nukes and linked economics so not to worry.

Sure, with S-400 and S-500, and SU-35, SU-37... :confused:

God bless the believers.
 
Show me the effectiveness of Russian aircraft and systems in combat?

How is there air intelligence assets? Jamming etc?
They can't rely on the numbers game in the air versus European air forces and they have zero combat ready 5th gen aircraft.

(Unless super s-500 is insta stealth kill?)
 
Show me the effectiveness of Russian aircraft and systems in combat?

How is there air intelligence assets? Jamming etc?
They can't rely on the numbers game in the air versus European air forces and they have zero combat ready 5th gen aircraft.

(Unless super s-500 is insta stealth kill?)

S-500 is pretty good in its fully operational form from everything I've seen however it still suffers from limits when dealing with saturation attacks and a reliance on electronics, in its most advanced configurations, that can't be domestically produced though they are getting closer to those capabilities. They would absolutely struggle with the logistics of air cover for any advance against what Western nations can field in the air - they would need a very rapid advance so as to force Western powers to sacrifice high end hardware to buy time which would see their ground forces far outstrip their ability to forward logistic sufficient air cover.

People forget that major sticking point is the morale and ability to take huge losses while thinking you're fighting for a right cause. Russia will NOT invade western Europe at least as it is now. Russia does not need to be more powerful than whole nato combined to do this. All they need to do is sell the war to their population, which would allow ability to take huge losses (exactly what they are doing). Create a rift in west/east europe societies so the help would be minimal (exactly what they are doing). And there you go.

Again, given how Hungary, Poland is turning back on western values, will you or an American be conscripted happily without huge backlash to defend Poland? All they have to do is have enough power to send back couple thousand western NATO soldiers back in quick succession and possibly force a conscription to knock out any major wind.

Also given US performance with covid PPE in Europe... If current trend sticks I don't think we should rely on them too much either to come running in high water. Unless Ivans are going to start crossing over the channel.

Don't forget France in WW2, what a population that has no desire to fight can achieve.

On top of it all, Russian millitary is designed ultimately to combat America rather than anything else. That is why they are so heavily invested in their AA systems and hunter submarines for aircraft carriers.

I see the western world collapsing to smaller and smaller time-scales. This administration, Next administration. This quarter, second quarter etc. Russia under putin is playing a game decades ahead and it really worries me. We need to kick out a stool under putin before its too late. It has to be done by changing russian population minds - not anything else will work.

Finally why would Russia do this? Its not for land, its a culmination point of years of propaganda. Such what Brexit vote was. The writing is on the wall everywhere but people keep ignoring it.

Depends a bit on the circumstances leading up to conflict - the way things build up to a conflict can have huge ramifications and despite what some people think sometimes things can lead to conflict despite the best intentions of both parties when both are manoeuvred into or have manoeuvred themselves into a position they can't back down from even at this level. I think this gets into far more complex territory where there are no clear cut answers.
 
Well something had to be done to respond to Russia's growing sphere of influence, the problem is that we're being far too civil.
Being civil is what distinguishes us from Russia. If we start saying "Do as we say we're giving you all this money", we're doing exactly what our enemy and the 'bad guy' Russia would be doing.
 
Unfortunately, the situation in EU member Bulgaria is dire.
National protests are going for 2 months with main request - PM Boyko Borissov resignation.
Unfortunately, this PM lives in his own realities, completely ignoring the future of the nation - that the nation is going backwards, without any European integration, development or progress.
Only corruption, oligarchy and business with select inside companies.

The people are tired of the system and want direct democracy.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/v...rs-clash-with-bulgarian-police-in-sofia-video
https://www.euronews.com/2020/09/03...in-the-fire-with-plans-to-change-constitution
https://balkaninsight.com/2020/09/02/protest-tension-grows-in-bulgaria-amid-standoff-in-parliament/

Why doesn't the EU help with sanctions against the BG government?
The BG government violates the EU jurisdictions, laws, directives and its own Constitution.

How is it possible that an EU member state can be governed by a dictator similar to Turkish Erdogan, Belorussian Lukashenko or North Korean Kim Jong-un?



 
The EU is made up of a confederacy of member states it cannot merely act unilaterally without agreement, sometimes unanimously.

This is not true, as is the case with Poland or Hungary:

European Commission triggers Article 7 against Poland
The European Commission has launched proceedings against Poland for breaching European common values and rule of law. While only a warning, Article 7 could lead to sanctions and a suspension of EU voting rights.
https://www.dw.com/en/european-commission-triggers-article-7-against-poland/a-41873962

EU Parliament votes to trigger Article 7 sanctions procedure against Hungary
In a tense vote, a majority of EU lawmakers backed a motion that opens the door to sanctions against Hungary. Viktor Orban's government is accused of silencing media, targeting NGOs and removing independent judges.
https://www.dw.com/en/eu-parliament...anctions-procedure-against-hungary/a-45459720

Or even Germany:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...uling-on-ecb-bonds-eu-officials-idUSKBN22N2IT

Naughty nations that don't want to be part of the Union..
 
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