Family dispute incoming

[potatolord]

Yup, sometimes there's an understandable reason to not have an even split, that's what happened with my mum's sister - she moved in and looked after Nana and so she got the house.



Well, you've clearly brought it up with your mum so no need to mention your aunty.

Just approach it tactfully, probably better to try and resolve it now rather than let any resentment build later. Like it seems there is a reason for her doing it - presumably, you have a house (albeit with a mortgage) and she didn't so, as a worried parent, she's trying to ensure her daughter is taken care of too rather than it being something personal towards yourself.

Potentially a bit of a "girl math" moment though, not considering that a 300k home might be way more than whatever equity you've managed to build up with your mortgage-purchased house.

If you're approaching it from an angle of understanding that she's trying to ensure your sister is taken care of too etc.. then maybe that's less likely to cause further lies/guilt etc.. you perhaps then want to put across that this is a substantial gift and while you're not expecting that suddenly you get some big lump sum too, that they perhaps ought to consult a financial advisor re: the will.

Essentially (especially if your mum isn't too numerate), contact IFA, explain that she wants to split evenly (granted this now becomes slightly subjective) and see how to set up will (accounting for possible IHT too) so as to give you a larger share of the main house and other assets to balance out the very large gift your sister has already received from your mum/her estate (this does count as part of it if she passes within 7 years of the gift). Basically an amount of 300k(or whatever the house value was) + inflation from X year to go to you then rest of the estate split 50/50 would be a fair way to do it.

Thanks for the helpful response.

I really don't want to get into the financials with my mum, as it's hassle she doesn't need and I don't want to be "that guy". That house is gone, and I can't do anything about it. I just want to know why she couldn't tell me.

 

[potatolord]

On flip side. It's also perfectly fair in this case for the OP to stop helping out. For the same reason. They are all adults.

If I felt I had been wronged that's what I'd do personally. Be civil about it. But no more helping out. Especially financially.

Heh, the nuclear option!

Nah, she's my mum, I can't do that.

 

[potatolord]

I didn't mean so much get into details more just a suggestion that if the original idea was that you're both treated equally and now this has thrown a spanner in the works that she just sits down with a financial advisor, tells him that's her wish and has him draw it up, taking into account the gift, so it's "equal".

For example, part of why she maybe lied about/didn't want to address it is because it's then complicating things and that's stressed her so she's put it off/avoided telling you... perhaps because she doesn't know what to do. That's a super common reason for people to avoid stuff.

If you're coming from say an understanding pov re: your sister needing a house etc.. then that maybe makes things less stressful for your mum and this possible dilemma. Then you have either acceptance on your part of the 300k asset going to your sister or the possibility of suggesting an impartial third party (IFA) be tasked with sorting it out with the general instruction that she wants a 50/50 split and any problem/dilemma she was worried about gets taken care of.

I have no idea what her motivation is. This is, I guess, my problem- I haven't been informed, so I don't know. I've been lied to along the way, which is not good.

I don't want to get into financials, as it's going to make it look like I'm chasing cash. I'm not- I just want some honesty about why she made this decision with my sister, and didn't tell me.

I can't see this going well at all in the short or long-term.

 

[potatolord]

Slight tangent: Without knowing the actual family circumstances and history it's impossible to guess at whether actions are reasonable or not. Perhaps his mother is just playing favourites, or maybe the OP has a history of telling his mother what to do (but he doesn't see it that way) or has received help in the past that he has forgotten. For example I have a family member that has essentially rewritten history and refuses to acknowledge the significant help they received from someone that helped them get on the property ladder, or indeed that they subsequently treated that person (who has since died and so can't tell their side) rather poorly.

Just picking this up.

It's possible I'm making everything up here to make me sound decent. It's possible that I'm not seeing my past behaviour reasonably. I accept those are valid propositions, but they don't feel true to me.

I help my mum out a lot- because it's the right thing to do. My sister does (and maybe I don't see it) nothing- and rarely visits her.

It feels like I am a long way second best here.

 

[potatolord]

Why do you HAVE to? Move on.

The lying is probably because the fear of this level of reaction.

Who cares? I don't give an arse what my parents do with their property or assets. Give them to charity for all I care. It's theirs to do with what they want.

It sounds like you feel something is "unfair" but it just is what it is... why do you feel so deeply bothered by it?

I'm so bothered as my mum has lied to me. I'll have to talk to her about it now and am not sure how that's going to go. That could have been avoided with a chat before.

If she had given it to charity, I would have less of an issue.

It's her money and her decision, but I don't know why she made it or couldn't tell me. If she'd told me, I could have asked her why. If she'd said "she needs it more than you", I would have had to accept that. As it stands, I have no idea.

Bit of background: around ten years ago, my mum gave my sister around £20k of jewellery (family heirlooms) on the grounds they go down the female side of the family. I accepted that and it's never been an issue. This is why I don't understand why she didn't tell me this time.

 

[potatolord]

If I were you I would consider finding a way of asking the question without going in guns blazing, because there *could* be more to this than you are aware of.

Yes, thanks. That's fair.

That's why I asked for advice in my opening post.

My worry is mainly that my mum is going to feel attacked, and I don't want to upset her. I don't think I can avoid the conversation though.

I'm intending to ask her why she couldn't tell me- I don't want to say she's lied as that will just be needlessly confrontational. I need to let her explain, and shut my mouth while she does. There may be a reason I don't know- but that's because I wasn't involved.

The house, and the money is gone, so there's little point going down that line. I can't change that and she can't magic money out of thin air.

As I have said, many times, I want to know why I was cut out of any decision here.

 

[potatolord]

This is one of those threads that make me embarrassed of OCUK and 1000x worse than anything on Facebook with some of the replies with Magnolia being an absolute are as usual.
OP was told he was getting 50% and then finds out the house is gone, he has every right to ask why.

Like I said earlier, I'm exactly the other way, I can't ask my Mum why she went back on her word of giving me nothing to suddenly giving me 33% in the will and it's been a constant source of mental anxiety since because my Sister should have had everything.

Thanks.

I'm surprised by how many people have just assumed I'm a scumbag. I probably shouldn't be, but there you are.

There's a big difference between the hypothetical and my reality.

 

[potatolord]

It all sounds good but I wouldn't say the last sentence to her. At the end of the day, it is not your decision, it is solely hers.

I would rather ask "Why did you feel you couldn't trust me enough to let me know earlier? I don't care about the money."

That might be the most useful reply i've had, so thanks.

Heh, I wasn't intending to say the last sentence to her- I don't want a shouting match!

 

[potatolord]

This.

While my opinion may differ from OP, the sensible thing to do with an emotional reaction is to stop and remove the emotion from it to have a clear discussion. Might sound pointless but seriously consider writing a letter. Don't send it to your mum but the act of writing it should help you formulate your thoughts and questions and what you want to get out of the conversation, as well as giving you the chance to review/rewrite it and strip out the emotion. Saying 'you lied to me' is very charged and immediately puts her into defensive mode not ready for open discussion.

Thanks- another helpful.suggestion.

I was running through approaches in my mind last night, but it would would probably be helpful to write it down.

Must. NOT. Do. Flowchart.

 

[potatolord]

At the moment, he's not even 100% sure that his sister didn't buy the house from his mum - if she did, he'll still get a chunk of the money when she passes - he doesn't know it (or it's value) is 'gone' from the equation.

There's so many different potential scenarios that could have played out here, which is why the first thing he needs to settle on is deciding what he actually wants as an outcome from the conversation. Does he actually just want to know 'why?' through a sense of curiosity or does he feel entitled to more than that? It shapes the conversation in completely different directions.

Thanks.

Following a few replies here, I will be working out my approach and wording carefully.

The main thing is to not make my mum feel attacked.

I guess I really want to know why she felt like she couldn't involve me in what was a pretty big decision. I might hear things I don't like, so need to be prepared in order to not react badly.

I'm going to have to be in listening mode, that's for sure.

 

[potatolord]

I would advocate starting the conversation like a counsellor would advise.

The only indisputable facts here are how you feel. Anything else is assumptions on your part and she could counter (either truthfully or lying). You don't know she gave it away. You don't know if she's sold it cheap as early inheritance for your sister and planning on leaving you all her cash on a more positive potential narrative.

So focus on how this situation has made you feel (she can't dispute how you feel) and see how she reacts. You'll likely yield a more productive outcome. Something like, "I heard from Auntie that you may have given the house to my sister. This makes me feel very sad because I didn't know that and I believe it happened years ago. I feel hurt that you couldn't have talked to me about it. Can you help me understand?"

Focus on YOU and your feelings and not HER and what she has done. If you find yourself slipping into "you did this" and "you lied to me" you're using the wrong language and it'll come across as adversarial. Once you're in that mode it'll just become a slanging match and you'll not get any real answers.

Thanks-that's very helpful and I'll use that in my approach.

 

[potatolord]

Sounds like a "cool story bro" thread...

Where op needs to learn how to man up and sit down and talk to his family, kinda seems like this is why his sister got a house and he got nothing, because he has nothing to do with them and is incapable of talking to his mum

There's a lot of assuming going on there.

I speak to my mum every day and see her every week. I thought my mum could talk to me, but have found out that's not so.

I've been clear that I'm intending to talk about this, that was in the first post. Did you really manage to miss that? In 10 pages of thread?

 

[potatolord]

I think you need to very carefully articulate the difference between being involved in the decision (which was nothing to do with you and you had no right to interfere with) and being aware of the decision.

Yeah, that's a fair point

 

[potatolord]

Maybe there is some financial problems your sister has and she told your mother, and then asked to keep it quiet because she didn't want to be embarrassed in front of you?

The point I'm making is she might not have lied to undermine you. But she didn't want you to think bad of your sister.

This is assuming your sister hasn't been lying to your mother giving her a sob story and didn't want you looking into it.

I doubt your mother lied to you for the hell of it.

If I was you I'd be trying to find out why she lied about it. Ask her what your sister said to her. Then ask your sister separately to see if the stories add up.

Yep, good points. To my knowledge, my sister is pretty financially secure, but I could be wrong.

I need to have the conversation and find out why she didn't feel she could talk to me.

 

[potatolord]

We're going through a rather interesting inheritance from my grandmother at the moment and is causing a family rift.

Ultimately, my stance on these things come down to entitlement. If someone has decided they wish to do something with something that they own, that's their choice and you need to respect it.

Of course you have the benefit of asking your mother why she has done what she has done but at the end of the day she is your mother and doesn't need to answer to you.

That house is gone. I get that.

I also know she can do what she wants with her own stuff.

However, it would have been nice to have been told- some honesty. It's like a kick in the guts to know she's lied to me, for years.

I hope your inheritance stuff goes better than mine- I really do.

 

[potatolord]

Well all I can say is that right way forward is to air your grievances in OCUK's general discussion forum. You will definitely get the best reasoned, sound and sensible advice.

You should definitely not just have a conversation with your mother, that would be too obvious. Maybe just stand out side the front of the house and wave "WHERE'S MY MONEY" in semaphore.

To be fair, I got some helpful advice from some people. I'll use some of that.

Probably a 5-10% hit rate, which is not bad for here.

 

[potatolord]

@potatolord

Your sister's been living in the house since 2009? Have she and her husband done any work on the house? Renovation, extension, general repairs? Has your mum decided to sell it at a price that reflects what it was worth in 2009, when your sister moved in?

They didn't do anything on it for years, to my knowledge, until some time (think since the transfer/ sale happened, but can't remember the exact date so can't be sure) when they had roof repairs done. When I asked my mum why they were doing work on her house she just said it needed doing.

My mum said they told her the roof repair was £25k, and I know that is way out of line (a mate is a roofer), so told her that. Didn't seem.much point going on, so I left that there.

 

[potatolord]

Let's wrap this up then.

A - OP will have an adult conversation with his mother and/or sister.

B - OP will not do anything with the varied but useful advice given in this thread.

I'm rooting for A.

e: and you know what, thinking about self-reflection and so on, yes I was being an ass yesterday @potatolord . Apologies. Do the right thing dude, whatever that is for you.

Ta. More joy in heaven over a repentant sinner and all that.

I'm doing A. I had a brief chat with my wife about it earlier.

What happened to the "tribute" thread someone posted- that's vanished without trace, and my response to it is likewise gone?

Thanks for the advice @Raymond Lin , @ivrytwr3 , @BowdonUK ,@adidan, @413x and a few others. Thanks for the challenge @kindai. Thanks for the support @SexyGreyFox . I appreciate that, chaps- the sign of a good and helpful community.

I'm not replying further to this thread until I've had "the chat", and will update then.

 

[potatolord]

When's the converstion happening? it's been 3 days now and you said you speak with her every day

Tomorrow, as I have a day off work.

I spoke to her on the phone earlier, but didn't say anything.

It has to be done face to face.

I'm not looking forward to it at all.

 

[potatolord]

UPDATE

I spoke with my mum earlier.

Went better than expected, but was not pleasant.

I told her I knew my sister is the owner. I asked why she hadn't involved me and she said she had told me before. I said she hadn't despite direct questions from me in the past. She then said it was because she thought I'd go mad.

I told her I would have definitely asked questions and we discussed what happened.

- house was given, not sold. No money changed hands.
- Sister didn't have anywhere to live. I pointed out she had been living there for about ten years already.
- sister told her the house couldn't be sold for structural reasons. No advice sought on this, taken on trust.
- Sister told her the house was worth half its true value. No valuation was done as my mum took her at her word.
- Sister told her the council were going to compulsory purchase the house. No evidence provided, again taken on trust.
- my mum's maths is poor and thought if she gave me half of (unrealistically low) value, we would have had a fair share. That would be around a quarter of true value.
- Mum covered the costs of the solicitor etc for the transfer of house.

.More to follow...