FIFA World Cup 2014 - GROUP B [Spain, Netherlands, Chile, Australia - 13/18/23 June] **spoilers**

Bit of a shame for Australia last night and I thought they deserved more out of that game. They're really quite bad, bordering on woeful, and had zero composure in the first half. But they gave it a proper go, and had really pinned Chile back at certain points.

The Holland game was incredible. I had to watch it on record last night, as I was out for dinner, but had successfully ignored all media whilst out and was looking forward to not knowing the score beforehand. Got in a cab home and the firs tthing the driver said was "Did you hear about Spain?"...
 
Sneijder didn't have his best ever game, but Holland don't have many other options in that position. De Guzman and WIjnaldum are both essentially not-as-good versions of Sneijder. Leroy Fer doesn't have the required range of passing. Jordy Clasie is a good little player with a big future ahead of him, but won't get forward enough to support Robben and van Persie.
 
adey said:
spain showing their age or just a freak 45 mins?
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Neither. I'd say it was a mixture of things including two dodgy centre backs who couldn't defend in their own box or against the pace of Robben, a keeper who had a nightmare and only playing one striker which Holland dealt with very well. The same happened to them against Brazil in the Confederations Cup and I'd expect the same to happen again if they play the same way against a number of teams in the tournament.
 
adey said:
spain showing their age or just a freak 45 mins?
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They just had a bad 45 min. They looked comfortable in the first 45min, they controlled the game, could easily have been 2-0 by the 43rd min if Silva actually scored.

They had a disaster second half performance, but that was down to 3 players, Pique, Ramos and Iker, with all of them probably putting in their worst performance in their careers. Not to mention , RVP and Robben had a great game which then makes things looks worse than it actually is.

Doesn't change the fact that Spain controlled the first half and looked more dangerous to score. If it wasn't for RVP wonder goal, the Dutch would have had 1 shot on target in the first half I believe.
 
Pigeon_Killer said:
Neither. I'd say it was a mixture of things including two dodgy centre backs who couldn't defend in their own box or against the pace of Robben, a keeper who had a nightmare and only playing one striker which Holland dealt with very well. The same happened to them against Brazil in the Confederations Cup and I'd expect the same to happen again if they play the same way against a number of teams in the tournament.
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They are definitely showing their age, Xavi has been declining for 3-4 years, he was still brilliant 3 years ago, just he was absolutely incredible before that. a couple years ago he was still very good but noticeably worse, in the past 18 months I've barely seen a single game in which he's been a big influence.

At 34, he's noticeably slowed and has had 2 pretty poor seasons leading up to this. age or hunger, or fitness has pushed him backwards. He did nothing in that game, shouldn't have started based on his performances in the past year, maybe even shouldn't be in the squad. Iniesta is only 30 but again has shown a massive decline in the past 2 years. Alonso, lol, he's been a fouling idiot for two years, no pace, no effect on games, just kicks everyone who gets by him... which is everyone.

I think it happens at international level more than club level, that if you have a winning team or quality players, you keep picking them, even long after you shouldn't be. Spain are guilty of that, Casillas I guess you could pick as the third choice keeper but shouldn't be starting. iniesta, probably squad but not starting. Xavi is a close call on if he should be in the squad and Alonso should absolutely in no way be in the squad. Even if you did have him in the squad starting him in a game like this where pace was going to be a really key factor was retarded.

Busquets doesn't look remotely as good when Xavi isn't alongside him being a demi god of football, which I think most people could see about Busquets whenever he played. Simple, passing it on and fouling people when necessary. Great players can do what Busquets does and offer a hell of a lot more. Again lacking in pace for a game against players like Robben.

Then you have Pique, who only ever looked "okay" with Puyol beside him and Valdes behind him, on actual defending merit, he's awful.

If spain keep clinging to past glory and think the same team will play exactly the same as it did four years ago they are sorely mistaken.

The biggest problem now is, if a result like that pushes them to make the changes they need... the new line up would essentially be a new team that hasn't played together before. Enough quality to scrap by Chile and beat Aussie, probably, but to beat a top team that has played together for a few years, almost no chance.

If Xavi, Alonso, Casillas, Pique at the very least, and maybe Busquets/Iniesta(maybe after seeing how they play without Xavi/Alonso in there) were dropped 12-18 months ago, all the games between then and now could have been gelling a new team together.
 
Gux said:
They just had a bad 45 min. They looked comfortable in the first 45min, they controlled the game, could easily have been 2-0 by the 43rd min if Silva actually scored.

They had a disaster second half performance, but that was down to 3 players, Pique, Ramos and Iker, with all of them probably putting in their worst performance in their careers. Not to mention , RVP and Robben had a great game which then makes things looks worse than it actually is.

Doesn't change the fact that Spain controlled the first half and looked more dangerous to score. If it wasn't for RVP wonder goal, the Dutch would have had 1 shot on target in the first half I believe.
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Yeah, because Sneijder shouldn't have put Spain ahead, and only the defence has to defend, the fact that Holland walked through Xavi, Alonso, busquets like they weren't there is irrelevant right? The midfield defending, never.

Controlled the first half, rubbish, they made incredibly few chances, had next to no penetration, dived to get a penalty to take the lead and Silva looked utterly crap throughout. He fluffed almost everything he did, and at City and previously for Spain, I wouldn't put money on him to score that goal.

Spain created very little, were conceding possession much more frequently than usual, were creating less than usual, and made multiple defensive mistakes to that point.

A game is over 90 minutes and they were meh in the first half and complete crap in the second half. When they did have the ball Xavi/Iniesta/Costa/Silva/everyone else did nothing going forward, they rarely if ever looked like scoring in the second half. They did not control the game, Xavi/Busquets/Alonso/Iniesta did nothing to slow the game, control the ball, influence the game.

The central midfield was dire in the second half and pretty poor in the first half. Blaming the defence alone is madness, Holland had to get at the defence first and the midfield that should stand in their way.... didn't, at all.

The offence that should have helped push Holland back, that should have scored goals and helped the defence out, did nothing, created nothing, looked woeful.
 
Must agree with DM are Sneijder.

Am I the only one who thought Costa played well? His shooting was a bit off but his vision and movement were world class IMO.
 
His movement is good, if you watch Fabregas playing the false 9 for Barca, and sometimes Pedro, the sheer number of times they do the run along the defence the bend their run in behind, looking for the chip or throughball.... and get completely ignored by Iniesta/Xavi/Messi. They all but refuse to play the simple defence beating pass to someone making a great run. Maybe they don't look for it anymore so don't see it, maybe they just prefer to get their passing stats up with all the 3yard passes over and over again.

Costa made some great runs, I said during the game and so many times in the past decade... when the front man has good movement and there is no delivery... change the people not providing the balls, not the guy up front. Xavi/Iniesta and Silva in particular were terrible, they found Costa, well, effectively just the once in the game and didn't exactly provide Torres with loads of chances, nor Pedro.

Of course, Costa could/should have scored without the dive and he did pretty much headbutt someone(not seen a good replay to see how much contact their was).

I actually think Fabregas somewhere behind Costa would have probably worked pretty well in finding the right balls. Iniesta/Xavi have become players who used to try any kind of pass at any range, to guys who really ONLY look for a small selection of passes now. Which is what made the starting Costa such a stupid decision as they basically ignored most of what Costa was doing for the majority of the game.

I think with Koke/Fabregas in midfield, Costa could work very well. Would play Villa wide as well. I'm not convinced Costa is match fit or at his best though and Villa is such a big game player, I'm not sure I'd start Costa.

Another thing to keep in mind was the conditions, Alonso 32, who barely runs anymore anyway, has no pace, Xavi, 34, lost his pace, runs less, doesn't put himself about as much... starting both in tough conditions. Both barely did anything in the second half, but wasn't that completely predictable?


Something else to keep in mind is, almost every weakness Spain showed yesterday, were the same issues they had in the confed cup, Xavi/Alonso on the wane, Silva starting and not being effective, Torres getting starts he didn't deserve. Pique got a yellow against italy, and a red in the final, we all know he's a joke and he still starts in the world cup. Despite being pretty crap in the confed cup with the same team, for the same reasons, with the same MASSIVE weakness to the counter attack, the same lack of pace in central midfield defensively to cope with it and the massive space between midfield/defence..... they managed to come to another tournament with, no new tactics, same starting line up, same players playing poorly, same tactical mistakes. Did they think no one would watch the confed cup footage and see why they lost? The only question is, why didn't Spain watch the footage, realise why they lost and change it.
 
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drunkenmaster said:
Of course, Costa could/should have scored without the dive and he did pretty much headbutt someone(not seen a good replay to see how much contact their was).
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Very little but the intent was there, if the ref would have seen it he woulda been gone.
 
drunkenmaster said:
Another thing to keep in mind was the conditions, Alonso 32, who barely runs anymore anyway, has no pace, Xavi, 34, lost his pace, runs less, doesn't put himself about as much... starting both in tough conditions. Both barely did anything in the second half, but wasn't that completely predictable?
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Guess who covered the most ground last night? Xavi.

Guess which two players covered the most ground in the first half? Xavi and Alonso.

Guess which midfielder sprinted at 27km which was the fourth fastest of the starting XI for Spain? Alonso.

Guess which two players spent the longest running at medium pace and full pace? Yes, you've guessed it... Xavi and Alonso.

What did you say about completely predictable?
 
drunkenmaster said:
Yeah, because Sneijder shouldn't have put Spain ahead, and only the defence has to defend, the fact that Holland walked through Xavi, Alonso, busquets like they weren't there is irrelevant right? The midfield defending, never.

Controlled the first half, rubbish, they made incredibly few chances, had next to no penetration, dived to get a penalty to take the lead and Silva looked utterly crap throughout. He fluffed almost everything he did, and at City and previously for Spain, I wouldn't put money on him to score that goal.

They did control the first half. Possession was 69% to 31%, Attempts was 6 to 3, corners was 2 - 0. The sneijder chance, 9 min into the game was a good chance and should have scored. The next scoring change they got was when RVP scored in the 44min. This means they played for 35 min and they didn't create nothing. They literally didn't create anything and if it wasn't for the RVP wonder goal, would have gone in 1-0 down.

Spain created very little, were conceding possession much more frequently than usual, were creating less than usual, and made multiple defensive mistakes to that point.

Spain did create very little, but still managed to create more than the opposition in the first half. Most of the game was played in the Holland half and possession stats would back this up. They had more corners and shots. Spain were the better side in the first half but not by much.

A game is over 90 minutes and they were meh in the first half and complete crap in the second half. When they did have the ball Xavi/Iniesta/Costa/Silva/everyone else did nothing going forward, they rarely if ever looked like scoring in the second half. They did not control the game, Xavi/Busquets/Alonso/Iniesta did nothing to slow the game, control the ball, influence the game.

The central midfield was dire in the second half and pretty poor in the first half. Blaming the defence alone is madness, Holland had to get at the defence first and the midfield that should stand in their way.... didn't, at all.

I agree that in the second half Spain were much worse and did not control the game at all. The biggest mistake was taking Alonso off, that was when the real trouble started and then they really started to struggle. But that doesn't change the fact that the defence was to blame, Pique and Ramos were 50 yards apart in almost every time Holland attacked in the second half.

The offence that should have helped push Holland back, that should have scored goals and helped the defence out, did nothing, created nothing, looked woeful.

Did nothing? Then how the hell did spain have 70-30 possession? Holland was not sustaining attacks for the most part, they counter attacked by using pace and long passes to RVP and Robben. You can't expect the midfield of Spain to stop every pass coming though can you? The fact is the back 3 had a shocking game and no matter how good Spain attack or midfield would have been, they would never had won that game. The defence was to blame for the 5 goals and it could have been 7 or 8.
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Pigeon_Killer said:
Guess who covered the most ground last night? Xavi.

Guess which two players covered the most ground in the first half? Xavi and Alonso.

Guess which midfielder sprinted at 27km which was the fourth fastest of the starting XI for Spain? Alonso.

Guess which two players spent the longest running at medium pace and full pace? Yes, you've guessed it... Xavi and Alonso.

What did you say about completely predictable?
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Dude don't you know, Xavi and Alonso are to blame because Holland created 12 chances and scored nearly 50% of them. Totally Xavi and Alonso's fault. Nothing to do with non existent defence/keeper and brilliant game RVP and Robben were having
 
Hmm, where did I say the defence wasn't to blame, however, you defend with more than just the 4 at the back and the goal keeper, the attacks have to get through the midfield to get to the defence, they got through the midfield with ridiculous ease when they shouldn't have. A good defence includes the midfield. It's exceptionally rare for a team to be defensively solid when the midfield doesn't help, the midfield didn't help at all in that respect and that IS part of their job.

Possession is a statistic that means literally nothing. 6 shots, two of which were Iniesta, one was over the bar and non threatening, the other is listed as on target though it looked to be going just wide in reality, was easily "saved", was low power and from reasonable range. Silva's never looked like going in, Costa managed to turn a great chance into a penalty via a dive when he really should have scored. Alonso will count as one of those chances. It's rare for teams to have no chances, but Spain really didn't look threatening, they weren't making loads of chances, it was a small amount of half chances, non threatening shots from range.

Casillas was only completely at fault for one goal, could have done better for one or two others, Pique/Ramos could have done better for almost all of them, but SO could Xavi and Alonso. I was responding to someone who laid the blame entirely at the feet of the defence and not at all the midfield. it was ALL of their faults.

Don't forget that Spain(and Barca) for 6 years have defended from the front, their entire defensive strategy is winning it back high up the field, closing down hard, winning tackles, working together. This did not work, they frequently let the ball get beyond them, 4 years ago they weren't letting that happen, now they let it happen constantly.


The fact is the back 3 had a shocking game and no matter how good Spain attack or midfield would have been, they would never had won that game. The defence was to blame for the 5 goals and it could have been 7 or 8.
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It's funny that, you say they had 70% possession, and no matter how good the spain attack of midfield have been, they would never have won the game.......... how about if the brilliant attack and midfield got together and scored... I don't know, 6 goals?

No way the attack/midfield could have helped? Really? Holland sat back in the first half, they felt like they could attack more in the second half as the Spanish offence was utterly toothless... so they did.

70% possession and creating 2 real chances to score of which one was fluffed and the other became a dive.... yes if Xavi/Iniesta/Silva actually picked out Costa more than once when he ran in behind, if Silva wasn't just ****, if Iniesta did something other than shoot poorly or run to the edge of the box then pass into the closest defender, yes there was a LOT the midfield and offence could have done, to suggest they could have no impact on the game is utterly laughable.

Likewise if they were playing better and making better chances and scoring more, Holland wouldn't have gotten so many people forward in so many attacks.

But apparently, with all the ball and almost all in the opposition half, the midfield/attack was blameless as to the result because there is no way at all they could have changed the result in any way at all.... sure.

It's really all the more laughable because Holland's midfield and attack had a pretty big say on the result of the game, by doing what they were supposed to do, and doing it very well. But 6 of the 10 outfield players for Spain, twice euro, once world champions... could have no effect on the result of the game...... I mean, you really want to stick with that?
 
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Spain are still a class above holland i think, better footballing side no doubt, definitely look more rounded with Costa up front. Still getting used to it as well. If they meet again, Spain will win. 2nd half was a just a nightmare, they panicked big time.
 
Pigeon ignored when proving he's talking ****e, doesnt like responding to things proving he's wrong.

Still waiting to know the third final Fabregas apparently assisted for Spain and most influential player :D
 
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