Five-year-old boy lives as girl in youngest case of Gender Identity Disorder

Glaucus said:
They aren't doing that. They are very much pushing one over the other, even if they don't mean to be.
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They are not pushing any particular gender, they are going along with the child's choice to live as a girl 'atm', that is not the same as pushing a gender upon the child, if they put the brakes on then they will be pushing a gender identity upon the child, they have said it's up to the child.
 
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How are they not pushing it, positive reinforcement. They've even changed the toilets to uni sex.
Rather than it doesn't matter what you think you are, you use the urinals as that's not down to what you think you are.
 
Glaucus said:
How are they not pushing it, positive reinforcement. They've even changed the toilets to uni sex.
Rather than it doesn't matter what you think you are, you use the urinals as that's not down to what you think you are.
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I hardly see changing the toilets to uni sex being a big deal, they are becoming much more common place anyway, and not just because of people that suffer from GID.

I personally don't see this as positive reinforcement, usually that is defined by a reward or active encouragement, I don't see that here, they are just letting him choose to live as a girl, they are not encouraging it but then I think this depends on how you define positive reinforcement and encouragement, semantics I guess.
 
Reward is attention, the media the school, parents they are all rewarding him. That is very much positive reinforcement.

Its not as if it was a quite word to the head teach to explain things and keep it fairly quite. They all seem to be revelling in this new challenge and how modern and forward thinking they are being.
 
Glaucus said:
How are they not pushing it, positive reinforcement. They've even changed the toilets to uni sex.
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Even? Having a single toilet for both sexes resolves the distinction of which one to go in when their gender says one thing and their sex another, how is that positive reinforcement of any gender?
Glaucus said:
Rather than it doesn't matter what you think you are, you use the urinals as that's not down to what you think you are.
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Really? Abstracting away the gender difference from using the toilets isn't a better option?
 
Glaucus said:
Reward is attention, the media the school, parents they are all rewarding him. That is very much positive reinforcement.

Its not as if it was a quite word to the head teach to explain things and keep it fairly quite. They all seem to be revelling in this new challenge and how modern and forward thinking they are being.
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That's my impression too.

Even if the kid does now need some serious psychological attention, which seems likely, on face vale it seems to me like the parents to some extent pandered his fantasy until it became his reality.
 
Xordium said:
Yes it most likely can be justified but that does not mean it is correct or necessary. All the work they do with this family can be done without such a label attached and all the implications that will follow on from that. Shining a spotlight on such issues to raise awareness and acceptance is one thing - shining a spotlight on an individual case is hardly going to be beneficial. At least no-one is trying "to cure" the kid so the establishment has made some progress.
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What if, say, the diagnosis is needed to access the appropriate psychological support through their local authority. We don't know the structure of their authority so can't say that the child would get the support without the diagnosis.

I'm not getting into the argument that a 5 year old can/can't have a psychological 'disorder'; I am saying that the diagnosis, if not fully supported by appropriate evidence, would not have been agreed by the professionals involved.
 
fus said:
What if, say, the diagnosis is needed to access the appropriate psychological support through their local authority. We don't know the structure of their authority so can't say that the child would get the support without the diagnosis.

I'm not getting into the argument that a 5 year old can/can't have a psychological 'disorder'; I am saying that the diagnosis, if not fully supported by appropriate evidence, would not have been agreed by the professionals involved.
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"What if" would not be the case. Referral would have been to tertiary and tier 4 services which circumnavigates this as the provisions are made differently for such services in paeds.

Again as per the post above a great deal of this is the hangover from faulty methodology from Money. It does not make it right in fact it is downright shocking that the hangover still continues in this day and age. The diagnosis itself is highly contented and challenged.
 
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Xordium said:
"What if" would not be the case. Referral would have been to tertiary and tier 4 services which circumnavigates this as the provisions are made differently for such services in paeds.

Again as per the post above a great deal of this is the hangover from faulty methodology from Money. It does not make it right in fact it is downright shocking that the hangover still continues in this day and age. The diagnosis itself is highly contented and challenged.
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Ah I remember you from the 'other' thread (re: dyspraxia, ASD, etc)!

I just like to play devil's advocate to try and offer different perspectives. I don't agree with the diagnosis (from the limited information available), but the question over whether a person of 5 can be aware of these sort of issues is a different point entirely. All in my opinion, of course.
 
So, the reason I do not understand this whole gender confusion thing is the simple fact that if my brain were swapped into a woman's body right now it would not really change the way I live my life or make me instantly want to start dressing like a boy or getting a sex change. I would be a woman and live as a lesbian.

It seems to me that people who are diagnosed with this want to act as the opposite sex more than anything else making it more of a social confusion rather than strictly gender confusion. My simple analogy is that if a male cat was trapped in a female cat's body surely its actions would be no different to a homosexual cats and even in that case you could not tell a gay/transgender cat by looking at it. Whereas the difference we see in the boy named in the OP is clearly visible due to opposite gender clothing, hairstyle and so on. Taking that into account how is a 5 year old boy different to a 5 year old girl other than looks and sexual organs? If you took them both and dressed them in gender neutral clothes and shaved heads you would notice a difference only in the actions they took socially, the toys they played with and the other children they tended to play with.

The deeper question there is whether a cat can even be gender confused...

Someone enlighten me...
 
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fus said:
Ah I remember you from the 'other' thread (re: dyspraxia, ASD, etc)!

I just like to play devil's advocate to try and offer different perspectives. I don't agree with the diagnosis (from the limited information available), but the question over whether a person of 5 can be aware of these sort of issues is a different point entirely. All in my opinion, of course.
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Good thing or bad thing? :D

My point being this is based on falsified research at least that's where it derives from and that is not being made apparent. Presuming you are someone who does know what I am on about here.
 
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Skyfall said:
So, the reason I do not understand this whole gender confusion thing is the simple fact that if my brain were swapped into a woman's body right now it would not really change the way I live my life or make me instantly want to start dressing like a boy or getting a sex change. I would be a woman and live as a lesbian.

It seems to me that people who are diagnosed with this want to act as the opposite sex more than anything else making it more of a social confusion rather than strictly gender confusion. My simple analogy is that if a male cat was trapped in a female cat's body surely its actions would be no different to a homosexual cats and even in that case you could not tell a gay/transgender cat by looking at it. Whereas the difference we see in the boy named in the OP is clearly visible due to opposite gender clothing, hairstyle and so on. Taking that into account how is a 5 year old boy different to a 5 year old girl other than looks and sexual organs? If you took them both and dressed them in gender neutral clothes and shaved heads you would notice a difference only in the actions they took socially, the toys they played with and the other children they tended to play with.

The deeper question there is whether a cat can even be gender confused...

Someone enlighten me...
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If my brian was swapped into a womens body i'm fairly sure i would be classed as a lesbian and dress very manly. But i'm not sure if i would go as far as having a sex change, i probably wouldn't, depends on how hot i was. If i was really fit i'd probably spend a lot of time alone in my room lol
 
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Skyfall said:
So, the reason I do not understand this whole gender confusion thing is the simple fact that if my brain were swapped into a woman's body right now it would not really change the way I live my life or make me instantly want to start dressing like a boy or getting a sex change. I would be a woman and live as a lesbian.

...
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if I cut of your nads and injected you with estrogen you would become very feminine....

not saying you would suddenly like men, but a lot of what you are is controlled chemically.... (the part thats not genetic anyway)
 
Skyfall said:
So, the reason I do not understand this whole gender confusion thing is the simple fact that if my brain were swapped into a woman's body right now it would not really change the way I live my life
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It would change the way others treated and responded to you. It would get grating, I imagine, to be not be recognised for the person you are.
 
Skyfall said:
But that's the point, the person I am is not the genitals I have or the clothes I wear...
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I agree but you still have to live in society wouldn't you?

You'd still be "you" and you'd still feel like a straight (or gay) man. If you suddenly woke up with a female body tomorrow you'd find other straight men hitting on you, or gay woman. Surely it would make relationships different. Perhaps, after such a sudden change, your friends and family would continue to call you by a male name. Imagine the looks and confrontations you would experience as someone who looks female but is being called "John". What about when you are out and need the toilet?

What about sport? If you played rugby yesterday, and woke up with a female body today you would no longer be allowed to play with your usual team. Imagine turning up for your weekly kick about with the lads in your new female body. Think they'd treat you the same?

Don't confuse sex and gender. Sex is your genitals and other secondary sexual characteristics. Gender and gender expression speak more to how you are precieved by others, and how you identify. Whilst the change to sex may not affect your day to day life too much, the resulting change of gender probably would.
 
Whilst a lot of the examples you give don't apply to me directly I understand the point you are making, but I think my scenario has put us off course as the examples you list are more to do with issues in my fantasy scenario or issues that people would face after 'gender reassignment' procedures.

I have difficulty putting it into words but my real question concerns what is it to be one gender or the other? To me it still comes down to genitals, penis or vagina... Anything else is a social construct or stereotype. To be female is not to have long hair, women's clothes and play with barbie dolls, as many women don't subscribe to one or all of those social norms but they are not gender confused (but you may be a transvestite). Gender is not then sexual attraction as if you are a man who likes men you are a homosexual...

So I'm missing this fundamental difference that these people feel. I do not see how they don't fit into the above categories. Socially abnormal or homosexual...

And this is why it seems to me a choice and or a general mental confusion regarding gender, simply put they want to be seen as one sex because they identify more with social norms of one than the other. I guess the question I would raise from this would be what is the difference between a 5 year old 'tom boy' and a 5 year old girl diagnosed with GID? They both want to do stereotypical male things but one wishes to be treated as a boy rather than just be a girl who does boy things.

And it cannot be a longing to just have the opposite sexes reproductive organs as for one, children of 5 do not really understand these differences and if they did they would realise they could never truly attain opposite sex anyway, just a facsimile. Why try later with surgery to be physically viewed as a bad version of one sex instead of just doing what you want to do whilst retaining your fully functioning genitals.

And for the record, from the article I read it said the little boy even tried to 'cut off his penis' this in my opinion is not gender confusion but madness. I wanted to be taller when I was younger but I didn't tie myself to two horses and mush them in separate directions.

In closing I would say, why not just act they way you want to act, do what you want to do and let people keep calling you one gender or the other.

I do ramble.
 
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