Ford - Turbo Dieseles - Failing when not driven fast enough

[PMKeates]

I am half with Ford and half not; in this case as the buyer didn't purchase it from Ford, there's very little they are responsible for. If a Jersey resident walked in to a Ford showroom, registered interest in a diesel car for use on Jersey, and then this situation developed, I'd say the onus was on them to fix.

That said, I think the fact they built a car with a requirement to be driven at 50-60 MPH for 15 minutes every once a while to stop expensive bits failing, something which has never before been part of vehicle ownership before, is a failing on their part. It's also not as if the dealers were telling this to people when they bought them. The car should really either not require this or manage it automatically.

 

[Kenai]

That said, I think the fact they built a car with a requirement to be driven at 50-60 MPH for 15 minutes every once a while to stop expensive bits failing, something which has never before been part of vehicle ownership before, is a failing on their part. It's also not as if the dealers were telling this to people when they bought them. The car should really either not require this or manage it automatically.

This is hardly a Ford issue though is it? This is pretty much common to every modern diesel you've been able to buy for at least half a decade isn't it?

 

[Brookert]

Shock as diesel, bought for inappropriate use, breaks.

Its not just Ford, all the manufacturers are chucking these diesels at people who want uber economy, but don't realise the nature of modern diesels. They need longer, high rpm usage.

 

[SB118]

Like a petrol, but not a petrol?

 

[Dogbreath]

That said, I think the fact they built a car with a requirement to be driven at 50-60 MPH for 15 minutes every once a while to stop expensive bits failing, something which has never before been part of vehicle ownership before, is a failing on their part.

Hardly. DPF's are fitted to enable diesel engines to pass European emissions regulations. Ford do not fit them just because they want to make the car more expensive to build and more inconvenient for the owners.

The problems caused by inappropriate use of cars fitted with DPF's have been widely publicised. If someone spends the better part of 20k on a car without doing any research, that's their own problem. Besides which, buying a diesel to drive in Jersey is simply laughable.

 

[abbotsmike]

This is hardly a Ford issue though is it? This is pretty much common to every modern diesel you've been able to buy for at least half a decade isn't it?

Yup, for the most part sadly. Except for my '07 PD130 ibiza, no DPF for me!!

 

[Simon]

I think theres a big thought process missing here driving at less than 50mph doesnt automatically cause the turbo to fail, the 'problem' is due to DPF blocking which raises the turbo temperatures. 50mph is irrelevant. The car just needs to be driven in a way to raise the DPF temperature so it can burn off the accumulated soot.

If its driven miss daisy then the DPF block and the turbo has to work harder. A bit like a Hoover with a blocked HEPA filter, the motor works a lot harder and even trips out due to overheating (oops).

Different OEMs have different DPF regen stratergies. The ford one is passive relying on the driver to actually use the engine properly. VW has an active system that injects fuel late to burn in the exhaust and raise temperatures, this is not without it's own issues though

 

[Sin_Chase]

Wait, let me get this right.

You all think Ford can sell cars, from Jersey dealerships, in Jersey dealerships that sit on Ford Jersey forecourts that will fail because they will never be driven above 40MPH, and, that this is absolutely of no concern to Ford and an entirely caveat emptor situation?

Are you all absolutely bloody mental? MOST people will not research a vehicle purchase, rightly or wrongly this is just the way things are. However, it seems laughable that Ford Jersey can even offer cars for sale for use in Jersey that they KNOW will likely fail due to this known issue. But most of you are of the opinion that this is the purchasers problem and Ford have a green-light to sell such vehicles with such knowledge, vehicles they warrant no less.

So, in short - Everyone should look up their preferred vehicle in enough detail to ascertain it has a DPF, then link this piece of equipment with supposedly widely spread information about DPF related failures and then chose not to buy it having learnt this. All with zero input from the dealership that sells them the vehicle.

So, for sake of argument - Why is there so much legislation around advertisement to 'protect the consumer' but in this instance you side with the dealership and Ford in that they can sell products they can safely assume will be used in country of purchase for a majority of the time and go on to fail.

Absolutely ridiculous, just goes to show the amount of elitest 'experts' in OcUK motors who project their own 'Glorious Car Buying Elite Ability' onto the general public with the opinion of "You should have known better, it's your own fault Ford sold you a product they knew would fail in it's intended country of use"

-Ford's own user manual states "Must be driven at above 50-60mph for an extended period of time" (I'm not assuming this, Ford UK state this, refer to it's presence in the user manual and are indicating THIS is the reason for failures of the vehicle and that not following the user manual is not Ford UKs problem, indirectly advising that a Jersey resident should follow the manual and break the law or face the consequences)

-Sold in a country with a speed limit of 40MPH

-No mention of this is made at all prior to purchase

All above board according to OcUK? Aight.

 

[Kenai]

Ford sell, Ford sold you... etc. etc. yet your first post states it was a private sale?

Which is it?

If the car was bought privately, as Fox said, i'm not entirely sure what you expect Ford to have done at point of sale? Surely for all you know, Ford DID make these issues clear to the first owner who simply didn't bother to pass the info along?

 

[Hxc]

Well Ford didn't sell you a product, do you actually know if they tell you this at Ford Jersey or not, or are you just assuming they don't?

 

[Simon]

The manual wouldn't say drive I hard for a duration to regenerate the DPF though as whist that's the same effect, it wouldn't be responsible advice.

Vehicles sold in Jersey may be on a different engine map to the UK for all we know?

People who buy RX8s also need to never stop the car until warmed properly, cars with turbos need to be cooled down, engines need oil checking etc. Cars aren't just a white good that you plug in and expect to work without thinking about what you are in control of.

 

[Jokester]

Indeed, are you admitting to not actually reading the manual, which contains essential information on how to treat your car?

 

[Firestar_3x]

Wait, let me get this right.

You all think Ford can sell cars, from Jersey dealerships, in Jersey dealerships that sit on Ford Jersey forecourts that will fail because they will never be driven above 40MPH, and, that this is absolutely of no concern to Ford and an entirely caveat emptor situation?

Are you all absolutely bloody mental? MOST people will not research a vehicle purchase, rightly or wrongly this is just the way things are. However, it seems laughable that Ford Jersey can even offer cars for sale for use in Jersey that they KNOW will likely fail due to this known issue. But most of you are of the opinion that this is the purchasers problem and Ford have a green-light to sell such vehicles with such knowledge, vehicles they warrant no less.

So, in short - Everyone should look up their preferred vehicle in enough detail to ascertain it has a DPF, then link this piece of equipment with supposedly widely spread information about DPF related failures and then chose not to buy it having learnt this. All with zero input from the dealership that sells them the vehicle.

So, for sake of argument - Why is there so much legislation around advertisement to 'protect the consumer' but in this instance you side with the dealership and Ford in that they can sell products they can safely assume will be used in country of purchase for a majority of the time and go on to fail.

Absolutely ridiculous, just goes to show the amount of elitest 'experts' in OcUK motors who project their own 'Glorious Car Buying Elite Ability' onto the general public with the opinion of "You should have known better, it's your own fault Ford sold you a product they knew would fail in it's intended country of use"

-Ford's own user manual states "Must be driven at above 50-60mph for an extended period of time" (I'm not assuming this, Ford UK state this, refer to it's presence in the user manual and are indicating THIS is the reason for failures of the vehicle and that not following the user manual is not Ford UKs problem, indirectly advising that a Jersey resident should follow the manual and break the law or face the consequences)

-Sold in a country with a speed limit of 40MPH

-No mention of this is made at all prior to purchase

All above board according to OcUK? Aight.

How do Ford know the car is going to spend all it's time on the island?

In addition are we witnessing another, didn't get the answer I wanted so I'm going to throw my it's out of the pram thread, we've already had one of those today.

 

[Simon]

If they just replaced the turbo in the original problem but didn't change or look at the DPF then this could be the issue second time around. CELs can be triggered by excessive exhaust pressure due to a blocked DPF.

This is where I wouldn't be focusing my frustration - at why they didn't check the DPF first time.

 

[Draeger]

Does absolutely everybody in Jersey stick religiously to the 40mph speed limit?. No one exceeds it?. Even by a 'baby murdering' 10 mph?.

 

[Sin_Chase]

Well as you are so lovely I've decided to give you an opinion.


Ford and the vehicle owner have no relationship and no contract under SOGA. Why would they 'make good'? They didn't buy a car from Ford. Any 'making good' is purely a goodwill thing and nothing more.

.........

Firstly. Why are you quoting SOGA for a Jersey sold vehicle and a Jersey based business? Jersey has it's own consumer laws.

Secondly - In typical Fox fashion you pick apart a post, out of context where you clearly have not read nor understood the contents.

The original part of the OP relates to a specific issue with a friends S-Max and the reply Ford have come back with. The post then goes on, preceded with "This opens a whole host of other questions" asking how a situation like this should even be allowed to come around.

If A Jersey customer was buying a light aircraft and no such facility/airport existed to use it then no, questions regarding why it would be sold would never arise. It's blatantly obvious the ignorance of the buyer is at fault, you bought an Aircraft with no facility to use it, irrespective of it being sold in Jersey.

However, last time I checked Jersey has roads, it has cars and you can drive on them. Ford sells it's range of vehicles, all of which are contained within the same dealerships and all advertised for sale in Jersey. Seemingly they sell cars with components unsuitable for use here and make absolutely no effort to distinguish cars from one another or give guidance prior to sale. Just a small paragraph hidden in the owners manual they they then refer back to as a "Well, it;s not our fault you did not read it and it's not our fault you did not break the law following it"

 

[DaveyD]

Wait, let me get this right.

You all think Ford can sell cars, from Jersey dealerships, in Jersey dealerships that sit on Ford Jersey forecourts that will fail because they will never be driven above 40MPH, and, that this is absolutely of no concern to Ford and an entirely caveat emptor situation?

Are you all absolutely bloody mental? MOST people will not research a vehicle purchase, rightly or wrongly this is just the way things are. However, it seems laughable that Ford Jersey can even offer cars for sale for use in Jersey that they KNOW will likely fail due to this known issue. But most of you are of the opinion that this is the purchasers problem and Ford have a green-light to sell such vehicles with such knowledge, vehicles they warrant no less.

So, in short - Everyone should look up their preferred vehicle in enough detail to ascertain it has a DPF, then link this piece of equipment with supposedly widely spread information about DPF related failures and then chose not to buy it having learnt this. All with zero input from the dealership that sells them the vehicle.

So, for sake of argument - Why is there so much legislation around advertisement to 'protect the consumer' but in this instance you side with the dealership and Ford in that they can sell products they can safely assume will be used in country of purchase for a majority of the time and go on to fail.

Absolutely ridiculous, just goes to show the amount of elitest 'experts' in OcUK motors who project their own 'Glorious Car Buying Elite Ability' onto the general public with the opinion of "You should have known better, it's your own fault Ford sold you a product they knew would fail in it's intended country of use"

-Ford's own user manual states "Must be driven at above 50-60mph for an extended period of time" (I'm not assuming this, Ford UK state this, refer to it's presence in the user manual and are indicating THIS is the reason for failures of the vehicle and that not following the user manual is not Ford UKs problem, indirectly advising that a Jersey resident should follow the manual and break the law or face the consequences)

-Sold in a country with a speed limit of 40MPH

-No mention of this is made at all prior to purchase

All above board according to OcUK? Aight.

I don't know either way - but what percentage would you say of Jersey / CI residents take their car over on the ferry to the mainland?

Ford themselves will not design a car specifically for Jersey, hell you could argue Ford dealers in London shouldn't be selling Diesel cars there as you'll never get over 40mph around London - of course you've got every opportunity to take a quick drive on a motorway, so might be a poor example

It's the Ford dealership's fault - they shouldn't be selling these cars, or at least IF they do sell these cars they make it reasonably clear to say if you don't do some high speed driving, your DPF and engine bits are all going to go pop.

Do you know the original person who bought he car? Did they ever get told by the dealership about anything relating to speed etc?

 

[Firestar_3x]

If I get caught speeding on the motorway can I blame VW for selling me a car which will do 140mph + ?

If I leave a static picture on my plasma can I blame LG for the screen burn?

RTFM!

 

[Simon]

Firstly. Why are you quoting SOGA for a Jersey sold vehicle and a Jersey based business? Jersey has it's own consumer laws.

Secondly - In typical Fox fashion you pick apart a post, out of context where you clearly have not read nor understood the contents.

The original part of the OP relates to a specific issue with a friends S-Max and the reply Ford have come back with. The post then goes on, preceded with "This opens a whole host of other questions" asking how a situation like this should even be allowed to come around.

If A Jersey customer was buying a light aircraft and no such facility/airport existed to use it then no, questions regarding why it would be sold would never arise. It's blatantly obvious the ignorance of the buyer is at fault, you bought an Aircraft with no facility to use it, irrespective of it being sold in Jersey.

However, last time I checked Jersey has roads, it has cars and you can drive on them. Ford sells it's range of vehicles, all of which are contained within the same dealerships and all advertised for sale in Jersey. Seemingly they sell cars with components unsuitable for use here and make absolutely no effort to distinguish cars from one another or give guidance prior to sale. Just a small paragraph hidden in the owners manual they they then refer back to as a "Well, it;s not our fault you did not read it and it's not our fault you did not break the law following it"

Why are you ignoring all the ther comments I thought you mad this ps to get insights and comments of others. It seems you now just wat to disagree with everyone

Was the car sold into Jersey brand new or was it bought over from the UK?

As said the 50mph part is irrelevant. The fact it's in there is just relating the fact that 15 mins at 50mph gets the DPF up to temp about 300C from memory to regen

 

[Sin_Chase]

For all those asking if Ford give you this information, the answer is no.

I have bought from Ford personally, I have friends who worked for the Ford Dealerships as well as other input from those in the local trade.

Inside knowledge of Ford's servicing - Mechanics regularly break the law to rag the **** off service vehicles leaving large black clouds of smoke behind them. They knowingly do this yet Ford continues to sell vehicles knowing this is an occurrence?

I've come in asking for opinion and advice on this very specific problem and it's being dragged into a debate about whether someone in the Channel Islands should buy a diesel. I imagine a large % of diesel owners in the UK do not get a benefit from a diesel but have them nonetheless. I really do not want to debate that because we all have an opinion on it, there are so many sides of whether a diesel is suitable - Clear an absolute NO where the hard figures demonstrate little to no cost savings in using diesel fuel + associated servicing considerations to the no so clear NOs where people prefer diesels - you cannot argue preference.

Low mileage Ford S-Max throws CELs and power loss, a recurrence of issues fixed previously by Ford - once in warranty, once out of warranty.

Ford say it's because the car has not been driven as per the schedule in the manual. Hence, not their issue.

Ford Jersey know that guidance cannot be legally followed. This raises questions about sales made from Ford to customers that are independant of the issue the above S-Max has and might provide leverage against Ford to fix the issue and make clear communication about it. Can I make it any clearer?