German Grand Prix 2012, Hockenheim - Race 10/20

My point is, regardless of weather he should or shouldn't have given the place back, he wasn't instructed by the FIA to do so, but was then punished as if he had been told too but didn't.

A penalty for an illegal overtake should be the same if you do it on the first lap or the last lap.
 
Skeeter said:
My point is, regardless of weather he should or shouldn't have given the place back, he wasn't instructed by the FIA to do so, but was then punished as if he had been told too but didn't.

A penalty for an illegal overtake should be the same if you do it on the first lap or the last lap.
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Im confused - do you think RBR is run by a class of nursery school kids? Its RBRs impetus to follow the rules and the FIA/Charlie Whiting can assist with clarification, but how quickly that is provided (or if it is at all within the race time) does not determine whether the legality of the situation should be ignored.

Like most things in adult life, pleading ignorance is just not acceptable...

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
If that move had happened on lap 2, I am 100% certain that both McLaren and RBR would have contacted the stewards to state their case, the FIA would have decided the overtake was illegal, and they would have handed out a penalty.

That penalty would not have been a drive through, it would have been an instruction to give the place back.

RBR are not going to just hand a place back if they have even the slimmest thought that they might have a case to keep it.

And just lol at "Its RBRs impetus to follow the rules". Flexi wings, double diffusers, blown diffusers and engine maps all passed you by? Its every F1 teams impetus to stretch the rules to their absolute limit to get the best result they can.
 
Skeeter said:
That penalty would not have been a drive through, it would have been an instruction to give the place back.

RBR are not going to just hand a place back if they have even the slimmest thought that they might have a case to keep it.
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But there was no slim hope, unless they somehow forgot the 2/3 week old reclarification of what the track is and the penalties for gaining an advantage off it.

Also I doubt its a formal FIA instruction when they are asked to give places back but advice they get from Whiting before the need to raise it to the stewards.
Skeeter said:
And just lol at "Its RBRs impetus to follow the rules". Flexi wings, double diffusers, blown diffusers and engine maps all passed you by? Its every F1 teams impetus to stretch the rules to their absolute limit to get the best result they can.
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Sigh...

All those technologies you mentioned were grey areas where following FIA clarification; or objections raised by other teams as an unfair advantage; resulted in the rules being revised. That does not explicitly mean that when they were built that they at all broke the rules, just that the current set of rules did not clearly define them as illegal.

Its quite difficult to produce an exhaustive list especially when it comes to technology, but Im not sure why we need to discuss this when we are talking about a racing incident :confused:

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
You mentioned that RBR would try and follow the rules, I merely highlighted that is not the case.

I'm not disagreeing that RBR should have a) given the place back, and b) been penalised for not doing so. I'm just saying that a drive through is harsh from the FIA when, had the incident happened earlier in the race, it would have just resulted in him giving the place back.

RBR are well within their rights to seek clarification on a move before acting, and I would assume there case was around the equally recent 'don't squeeze drivers off the track if they are alongside' rule.

I'm not trying to defend Vettels move at all, I was shouting at the TV that he had to give it back before he even rejoined the track. I'm just annoyed at yet another inconsistent and disproportionate penalty from the FIA, and I think RBR have every right to feel rather hard done by for it.

Then again, as I said before, Vettel was pushing the limits of the track all race long, yet the FIA seemed to turn a blind eye to it. They had made it very clear that exceeding the track limits at turn 1 would be dealt with harshly and swiftly, but it seemed that running wide anywhere else was fair game.

The FIA have been awash with inconsistent penalties so far this year, and its starting to get stupid.
 
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Skeeter is still missing the point that the only contact the teams have with the FIA is Charlie, and all he does is advise the team is then free to go against his advice or with it, the FIA do not tell drivers to move over, there is no protocol for the FIA to do so, I have no idea where he has decided this to be the case and his whole point is based on something that is not true.

Teams are off course capable of thinking for themselves and do not need to bother Charlie when clearly they know what is acceptable and what has been directed to them by the FIA. FIA applied the rule book perfectly and totally consistently with every other penalty for illegal overtaking = drive-thru or 20 seconds added if done in the last 5 laps, as the rules state and every team is aware off.
 
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Skeeter said:
I'm not disagreeing that RBR should have a) given the place back, and b) been penalised for not doing so. I'm just saying that a drive through is harsh from the FIA when, had the incident happened earlier in the race, it would have just resulted in him giving the place back.

RBR are well within their rights to seek clarification on a move before acting, and I would assume there case was around the equally recent 'don't squeeze drivers off the track if they are alongside' rule.

I'm not trying to defend Vettels move at all, I was shouting at the TV that he had to give it back before he even rejoined the track. I'm just annoyed at yet another inconsistent and disproportionate penalty from the FIA, and I think RBR have every right to feel rather hard done by for it.

The FIA have been awash with inconsistent penalties so far this year, and its starting to get stupid.
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Im sorry but you are talking rubbish, its not upto the FIA to bow down to a teams timeframe or agenda but the other way round. RBR should have known it would have been looked at, its not like they had to leaf through the rulebook when they were only told just over a fortnight ago specifically what rule they were breaking. If the FIA dont give their clarification in time (it does happen) then the onus is still on RBR, thats why they employ people to know the rules inside out...

FIA is not at fault here in the slightest, RBR are - Im not blaming Vettel at all for what he did, but his team should have managed the situation better as they knew it was either going to end up being a 2nd place or with the standard 20second penalty (in lieu of a drive through) a position worth less points than the current 3rd they had. In that situation its best to err on caution and secure the points...

I think you are deluded to think the FIA in this situation did anything other than what the rulebook demanded, its unfortunately they didnt provide reclarification (if we accept your assumption) but that in itself does not exonerate RBR for what they allowed to happen.

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
So you think that if this happened earlier in the race, the response from the FIA would have been a drive through penalty?
 
Skeeter said:
So you think that if this happened earlier in the race, the response from the FIA would have been a drive through penalty?
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Yes, if they hadnt given the position back in a timely manner, either from common sense; recalling the rules that they have agreed to adhere to or; from Charlies advice who would have given it because he would have had the time in the race to advise - something thats quite apparent he was unable to provide during the actual incident rather than your hypothetical.

But your points moot, if you dont understand that then please keep banging that drum...

Also its the Stewards that award penalties as defined by the FIA rulebook not the FIA :p

ps3ud0 :cool:
 
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What is so hard to grasp here?

Vettel broke a rule.

If that rule had been broken on Lap 1, he would have had time to give the place back before the FIA acted. The stewards would have looked at it, saw the place had been given back and deemed that as no advantage was gained, there would be no further action. Had he driven on, there would have been a drive-through. Unquestionably.

As it happens, Vettel made an illegal overtake and did not give the place back before the FIA acted. As this happened in the last 5 laps of the race, the stewards take action after the race (which is to prevent hurried decisions being made with seconds of the race left to act).

Quite how this "sets a precedent" or whatever I don't know - the precedent is already there, in black and white, in the Sporting Regulations (and subsequent clarifications).
 
Jenson at Australia, drive thru for overtaking off the track, Alonso at Silverstone same, Lewis in France same. No idea why Skeeter seems to think nobody has ever been given a drive thru for the same thing?
 
Mr Men said:
Jenson at Australia, drive thru for overtaking off the track, Alonso at Silverstone same, Lewis in France same. No idea why Skeeter seems to think nobody has ever been given a drive thru for the same thing?
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Exactly!
 
Skeeter said:
Sets a bit of a worrying presidence...

What happens at Monza when people start overshooting chicanes like they always do. Are the FIA going to slap a drive through on them straight away before they even get a chance to give the place back?

Driver who overshoots: "Do I have to give the place back"
FIA: "Drive through penalty"
Driver: "Whaaaaaaaa?"
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Don't be a muppet. Going up an escape road is completely different than overtaking via Heidelberg.
 
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