Getting back into movie surround sound... best bang for buck?

[Richdog]

EDIT - UPDATE 02.06.2021

Well some years later my Denon X1200 has been a trooper. I now upgraded the fronts with some Klipsch R-625FA and moved the Zensor 3 to the back:

Front speakers: Klipsch R-625FA
Surround speakers: Dali Zensor 3
Subwoofer: SVS SB-12 NDS
AVR: Denon AVR-X1200W
TV: LG 65" OLED CX

Sounds very nice.

EDIT - UPDATE 15.05.2016

Photo of my now-complete home cinema:

Spoiler

Still need to tidy things up, but wow... very pleased with it. Full list of components is:

Front speakers: Dali Zensor 3
Surround speakers: Dali Zensor Pico
Subwoofer: SVS SB-12 NDS
AVR: Denon AVR-X1200W
TV: Samsung UE65JS8550

Love it.

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ORIGINAL POST FOR REFERENCE PURPOSES:

Dear Great OCUK Unwashed,

After selling my Pioneer VSX70 and Quad L-ite 5.1 system and buying a soundbar I thought I was done with the world of semi-audiophilia. Now, after completely re-organising my living room, I am pining for a return to decent sound where I listened to my music with at least some sense of awe and wonderment. I theoretically have a good budget, but I want to keep my spending under control and not do anything silly.

Additionally, I live in an apartment where the walls/floors are not uber thick so can't blast the neighbours into oblivion, and would ideally like to be able to manage without a sub (I know, I know) hence why I would like floor-standing speakers for the front.

My living room is approximately 5m x 4m (ish), and I am looking to get a wood/walnut finish to the speakers to make them feel warmer and blend with my furniture.

So far I am thinking the following:

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AV receiver: Denon AVR-X1200W (gets excellent reviews and has Atmos) - £250 http://www.trustedreviews.com/denon-avr-x1200w-review

Front speakers: Q-acoustics 3050i floor-standing speakers - £500 http://www.whathifi.com/q-acoustics/3050/review

Rear speakers: Q-acoustics 3010i bookshelf speakers on stands - £130

Center speaker: Q-acoustics 3090c - £130

Total spend: £1070

---------------------------

For the AV receiver I can find no bad reviews of the Denon AVR-X1200W and it is Atmos-enabled for future upgradeability. It seems to pack a lot of punch into a good size and price and for my size room I think would be perfect.

In terms of speakers I have chosen Q-acoustics because they seem to best in this price range, and they are also damn fine looking speakers in the Walnut cases. However I am open to suggestions for other brands and am also willing to buy used.

Suggestions on a postcard please.

 

[HEADRAT]

The above sounds pretty nice to me but as you're aware the lack of a sub will hurt, floor standers with help but they're not a sub.

 

[Richdog]

The above sounds pretty nice to me but as you're aware the lack of a sub will hurt, floor standers with help but they're not a sub.

Yeah I know what you mean mate but my reason for not getting the Q-acoustics 3070S sub is because it is pretty much the only thing that the reviews complain about:

"Subwoofer could do with firming up" http://www.whathifi.com/q-acoustics/3000-series-51-cinema-pack/review

"Sub isn't as wonderful as the speakers" https://www.avforums.com/review/q-acoustics-3000-5-1-speaker-system-review.11694

I have seen there is a package at my local place that has all of the above except the sub for £870. So I guess I can start with that package and then add a better sub later after I do some research.

 

[vila]

Then get a different sub... trying to run any form of 5.1 without a sub will be a massive loss as you'll be missing all of the lower frequencies. There will also be ways of setting it up to help mitigate it upsetting the neighbours.

 

[Marine-RX179]

It might actually make more sense to go with Q2000 series at the EOL price and spend more money on getting a better receiver...

 

[Richdog]

Then get a different sub... trying to run any form of 5.1 without a sub will be a massive loss as you'll be missing all of the lower frequencies. There will also be ways of setting it up to help mitigate it upsetting the neighbours.

Yeah you're right, I think I will.

It might actually make more sense to go with Q2000 series at the EOL price and spend more money on getting a better receiver...

Everything I have read says it's not worth pumping money into electronics, but into the speakers instead.

 

[Marine-RX179]

Yeah you're right, I think I will.



Everything I have read says it's not worth pumping money into electronics, but into the speakers instead.

The point is...whilst the Q3000 series is better than the Q2000 series, the performance different won't be that huge, as oppose the the difference in terms of the amp between an entry level receiver at around £200 mark compare to a mid-high range receiver at around £500-£600 mark.

At the very least, I am sure that the Denon AVR-X1200W will struggle to drive the floorstander at full-range when the receiver is pushing the other channels at the same time...you might as well get another pair of bookshelf instead for the front if you are going for that receiver. If you are sticking with the Floorstander choice, then I would suggest spending a bit more and stretch to at least the elder sibling the Denon AVR-X2200W.

 

[Jano]

Have you considered just going 2.0 stereo rather than 5.0? A decent stereo amp and stereo speakers may suit you better.

 

[pete910]

Food for thought, Q7000i?

Thats what I went for in the end for my x4200 as the ain't to big.
The sound is astounding given the size, They was on offer for 650 for the full 5.1 package.

Though looking now their back up to 800 +

Edit, I would have to agree with Marine too, No point having huge expensive speakers if the amp can't drive them .

 

[Richdog]

BTW guys I am certainly open to feedback on speaker choice and I appreciate and take into account all the comments even if I disagree on some small points. I'm certainly open to having my mind changed if good evidence is presented, especially with regards to other brands. I am also wondering if floorstanders are worth it or if its better to get bookshelf?

The point is...whilst the Q3000 series is better than the Q2000 series, the performance different won't be that huge, as oppose the the difference in terms of the amp between an entry level receiver at around £200 mark compare to a mid-high range receiver at around £500-£600 mark.

I see what you mean, but professional reviews I have read have pretty much unanimously state that the 3000 series is a discernible upgrade in terms of performance, though I haven't yet personally found them to listen to to compare. I think it is certainly better to put a little more money into speakers that I will end up keeping for a long time rather than AV receiver which can change substantially as technology progresses.

At the very least, I am sure that the Denon AVR-X1200W will struggle to drive the floorstander at full-range when the receiver is pushing the other channels at the same time...you might as well get another pair of bookshelf instead for the front if you are going for that receiver. If you are sticking with the Floorstander choice, then I would suggest spending a bit more and stretch to at least the elder sibling the Denon AVR-X2200W.

From the trustedreviews review: http://www.trustedreviews.com/denon-avr-x1200w-review

The price tag and power rating may be relatively modest, but it has no trouble driving a big, powerful speaker system – in this case, a £5k Monitor Audio Gold setup.
Read more at http://www.trustedreviews.com/denon-avr-x1200w-review#jVCvWKSjQ8EozTVK.99

That says to me it should be ok if it can drive those speakers. Also the predecessor to this receiver, the Denon AVR-X1100W, was also recommended in audioholics ideal $2500 system http://www.audioholics.com/recommended-systems/2500-5.1-channel-recommended-system

Have you considered just going 2.0 stereo rather than 5.0? A decent stereo amp and stereo speakers may suit you better.

I watch a ton of movies too, so 5.1 is definitely preferable.

Food for thought, Q7000i?

Thats what I went for in the end for my x4200 as the ain't to big.
The sound is astounding given the size, They was on offer for 650 for the full 5.1 package.

Though looking now their back up to 800 +

Edit, I would have to agree with Marine too, No point having huge expensive speakers if the amp can't drive them .

 

[Jano]

Have you ever actually tried a movie in 2.0? I'd suggest that a well sorted 2.0 system can actually sound better than an entry level 5.1/0, especially if you're doing without the sub. A decent second hand stereo amp that may have been £500+ new for half that, and well matched floorstanders that could have been over £1k new, and your looking at an extremely well sorted system that wouldn't miss a sub.

 

[Richdog]

I've read a very worrying thread on AV forums about Q-Acoustics quality control, looks like some customers had a nightmare with their subs https://www.avforums.com/threads/q-acoustics-3070s-sub-problem.1955402/

It's a little off-putting as I may be buying from a dealer with low turnover of stock so may get a dud if I got one.

Have you ever actually tried a movie in 2.0? I'd suggest that a well sorted 2.0 system can actually sound better than an entry level 5.1/0, especially if you're doing without the sub. A decent second hand stereo amp that may have been £500+ new for half that, and well matched floorstanders that could have been over £1k new, and your looking at an extremely well sorted system that wouldn't miss a sub.

Hi Jano, yes I have heard a movie in 2.0, but as stated in the OP, I used to have a decent and respectable 5.1 system that handled music and movies very well so I know what I like and am looking for a 5.1. Thanks anyway though!

I am willing to up budget a little if necessary, but my room is not huge and I can't crank things to crazy levels so there will be diminishing returns with my spending at some point.

 

[dl8860]

I would say pull the trigger on what you have lined up (X2100w and the Q 3000s), they are tried and tested equipment and I doubt you'll be disappointed at all. If you can accommodate it then I think you'd be silly not to go for the floorstanders, and if the amp really can't drive them (I'd trust that trustedreviews excerpt), you can always return them I'm sure.

If you feel the need to add a sub you can always add that later, right? A sub doesn't need to match the brand or model at all, so you can shop freely further down the line.

 

[Richdog]

I would say pull the trigger on what you have lined up (X2100w and the Q 3000s), they are tried and tested equipment and I doubt you'll be disappointed at all. If you can accommodate it then I think you'd be silly not to go for the floorstanders, and if the amp really can't drive them (I'd trust that trustedreviews excerpt), you can always return them I'm sure.

If you feel the need to add a sub you can always add that later, right? A sub doesn't need to match the brand or model at all, so you can shop freely further down the line.

Yup, agree 100% about the sub.

Question though, do you really think the 5050 floorstanders are worth it over the 3020 bookshelves... I mean if technically the only real benefit is bass response then when I add a sub that benefit will be negated, right? Also I understand that floorspeakers need to be further away from a wall than bookshelves?

3050 review http://www.whathifi.com/q-acoustics/3050/review

3020 review http://www.whathifi.com/q-acoustics/3020/review

 

[Marine-RX179]

From the trustedreviews review: http://www.trustedreviews.com/denon-avr-x1200w-review

I said it can drive Monitor Audio Gold speakers fine, but they didn't mention if the front is a pair of Floor-stander or bookshelf.

A Floor-stander is fine, if you were not going Full-range and pass the handling of the low frequency/bass below 80Hz (for example) over to the sub to handle; but if you were going Full-range for the Floor-stander letting it go all the way down to its lowest rated frequency, it can become overbearing for the front channel amps and making the sound become distorted.

But I think I have some good news if you have your mind set on the X1200W...I have had a quick look at its manual, it would seem it has the bi-amp feature:
http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX1200W/EU/EN/WBSPSYtweharpi.php#WBSPMLenkawunn

Since you are only going for 5.1 not 7.1 set up, you can actually wire the amp for the surround back channel to help with powering the front channel speakers, so you'd essentially having one pair of amp powering the Tweeters and one pair of amp powering the Woofers instead of powering them all using single pair of amp of the front channel.

 

[Richdog]

I must say I LOVE these Monitor audio bronze, and the rear speakers designed to go flush against the wall are genius. http://www.whathifi.com/monitor-audio/bronze-b5-av/review
I have also found them in a local online shop so I think I am now going to go for a set of these.

I said it can drive Monitor Audio Gold speakers fine, but they didn't mention if the front is a pair of Floor-stander or bookshelf.

A Floor-stander is fine, if you were not going Full-range and pass the handling of the low frequency/bass below 80Hz (for example) over to the sub to handle; but if you were going Full-range for the Floor-stander letting it go all the way down to its lowest rated frequency, it can become overbearing for the front channel amps and making the sound become distorted.

But I think I have some good news if you have your mind set on the X1200W...I have had a quick look at its manual, it would seem it has the bi-amp feature:
http://manuals.denon.com/AVRX1200W/EU/EN/WBSPSYtweharpi.php#WBSPMLenkawunn

Since you are only going for 5.1 not 7.1 set up, you can actually wire the amp for the surround back channel to help with powering the front channel speakers, so you'd essentially having one pair of amp powering the Tweeters and one pair of amp powering the Woofers instead of powering them all using single pair of amp of the front channel.

Thanks for the info chap, good to know.

 

[Richeh]

Not really sure on alternatives to the options you've made but more in response to the sub query. Have a look at BK Subs http://www.bkelec.com/ British made to order, VERY well received and one to fit every price budget, if you don't mind a preset colour/finish they also sell through ebay for quicker delivery.

 

[Richdog]

Not really sure on alternatives to the options you've made but more in response to the sub query. Have a look at BK Subs http://www.bkelec.com/ British made to order, VERY well received and one to fit every price budget, if you don't mind a preset colour/finish they also sell through ebay for quicker delivery.

Thanks but I have now got my heart set on the Monitor Bronze system and the sub gets very good feedback.

 

[Marine-RX179]

Thanks but I have now got my heart set on the Monitor Bronze system and the sub gets very good feedback.

Yes the Monitor Bronze are very nice speakers.

 

[Richdog]

Yes the Monitor Bronze are very nice speakers.

Yeah they look absolutely lovely, and apparently sound it too! Will see what price my local dealer can offer me for the full set...

Just out of interest, would you get floorstanders rather than front bookshelves with the Monitor Bronze?