Going Vegetarian.

MetalStorm said:
Vegetarianism is for losers... Real men eat meat.

Besides, if animals weren't mean't for eating, why are they made of meat?

r u for real ?, animals are here so we can see the difference between them and us, an animals life is based purely on instincts, we was given the gift of freedom of choice/expression for a reason, that's what makes us so unique, anyone that believes that eating meat makes a real man of them is a very sad person indeed, do really really really believe that in thousands of years time that people will still be eating meat, it's just a part of our evolution, with every new generation there are more and more people that choose to become vegetarian and that's never going to reverse, I know many parents that eat meet and their children choose to be vegiterain, these children will eventually become parents them selfs one day and will be bringing thier own children up the same,

the only real reason anyone would want to eat meet is becuase of the taste, NOTHING ELSE, if you eat meat,

- You are supporting the mass killing of inocent life,

- You are helping to destroy the planet at an exceptional rate

These are facts, common sense tells me that's bad so I choose to obstain from eating meat.
 
lowrider007 said:
r u for real ?, animals are here so we can see the difference between them and us, an animals life is based purely on instincts, we was given the gift of freedom of choice/expression for a reason, that's what makes us so unique, anyone that believes that eating meat makes a real man of them is a very sad person indeed, do really really really believe that in thousands of years time that people will still be eating meat, it's just a part of our evolution, with every new generation there are more and more people that choose to become vegetarian and that's never going to reverse, I know many parents that eat meet and their children choose to be vegiterain, these children will eventually become parents them selfs one day and will be bringing thier own children up the same,

the only real reason anyone would want to eat meet is becuase of the taste, NOTHING ELSE, if you eat meat,

- You are supporting the mass killing of inocent life,

- You are helping to destroy the planet at an exceptional rate

These are facts, common sense tells me that's bad so I choose to obstain from eating meat.

When you eat a plant you are supporting the mass killing of innocent ligfe at a far larger level. Do you know how many innocent lives are needlesly ended when you eat your bowl of pasta?

Eating any vegetables and crops (e.g. pasta, potatoes, vegetables and fruit) is helping destroy the planet at an exceptional rate greater than that of eating animals since the output per hectare is greater for meat than vegetables and arable crops.

People eat meat because our bodies evovled to eat a mixture of meat and vegetables. Hence the term "hunter gatherer". Cats evolved to eat only meat. Rabbits evolved to eat only veg. Thats life really.


"the only real reason anyone would want to eat meet is becuase of the taste, NOTHING ELSE, if you eat meat,"
No, it tastes good, it is good for your and is part of a healthy balanced diet. It is an excelent source of many vitamins, amino acids and other nutrients which are hard to find in vegetables. It is an excelent source of protein which can help muscle development. It helps distribute energy evenly through longer time periods and to satisfy hunger which can actually lead to healthy weight loss as oposed to eating eating a strict limited calorie vegetable diet designed for weight loss. This is along the lines of the takins diet, but note the Atkins diet is just a modern name for something which has been known for a long time.

Don't kid yourself in your fantasy world that all meat eaters are murders and their is no purpose in eating meat. Don't impose your ill-informed views on others.
 
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masslac said:
The money saved from not eating meat could go towards organic/free range eggs and dairy. That's what I did when I was vegetarian for quite a while (am currently thinking about it again, this time permanently).


It doesn't matter if its organic or free range, they still slaughter unproductive/ageing animals, male chicks for example are of no use and killed immediately.

Sorry to break it to you but all farming of animals involves their premature death!
 
lowrider007 said:
r u for real ?, animals are here so we can see the difference between them and us, an animals life is based purely on instincts, we was given the gift of freedom of choice/expression for a reason, that's what makes us so unique, anyone that believes that eating meat makes a real man of them is a very sad person indeed, do really really really believe that in thousands of years time that people will still be eating meat, it's just a part of our evolution, with every new generation there are more and more people that choose to become vegetarian and that's never going to reverse, I know many parents that eat meet and their children choose to be vegiterain, these children will eventually become parents them selfs one day and will be bringing thier own children up the same,

the only real reason anyone would want to eat meet is becuase of the taste, NOTHING ELSE, if you eat meat,

- You are supporting the mass killing of inocent life,

- You are helping to destroy the planet at an exceptional rate

These are facts, common sense tells me that's bad so I choose to obstain from eating meat.

What?!?!?!?! Don't be such a pussy
 
iCraig said:
Remember, us meat eaters are quite happy eating cows. We don't feel guilty about it in the slightest, sorry. :)

No because if you allowed yourself to feel guilty you'd have to stop eating what you enjoy.

I can understand that. But you are a lesser person because of it.
 
norm said:
No because if you allowed yourself to feel guilty you'd have to stop eating what you enjoy.

I can understand that. But you are a lesser person because of it.


Amazing how ignorant some people are.

You eat what you wish, if you're happy with your diet then that's up to you. You don't have any right at all to tell other people what to eat.

Oh and just so you know, you're plight against meat eaters is pointless. For every time you eat a quorn or whatever the hell it's called, I'll eat a ****ing zebra. :)
 
D.P. said:
When you eat a plant you are supporting the mass killing of innocent ligfe at a far larger level. Do you know how many innocent lives are needlesly ended when you eat your bowl of pasta?

Don't be so pedantic.

Eating any vegetables and crops (e.g. pasta, potatoes, vegetables and fruit) is helping destroy the planet at an exceptional rate greater than that of eating animals since the output per hectare is greater for meat than vegetables and arable crops.

I think you need do a little more research on this one,

- "all the wild animals and trees in more than 2.9 million acres of rainforest were destroyed in the 2004-2005 crop season in order to grow crops that are used to feed chickens and other animals in factory farms".

- "Meat-eating is the number one driving force for the destruction of these forests. Two-hundred and sixty million acres of U.S. forestland has been cleared for cropland to produce the meat-centered diet. Fifty-five square feet of tropical rainforest is consumed to produce every quarter-pound of rainforest beef. An alarming 75% of all U.S. topsoil has been lost to date. Eighty-five percent of this loss is directly related to livestock raising".

- "Each year 1,000 species are eliminated due to destruction of tropical rainforests for meat grazing and other uses. The rate is growing yearly".

- 2Meat-eating is devouring oil reserves at an alarming rate. It takes nearly 78 calories of fossil fuel (oil, natural gas, etc.) energy to produce one calory of beef protein and only 2 calories of fossil fuel energy to produce one calory of soybean. If every human ate a meat-centered diet, the world's known oil reserves would last a mere 13 years. They would last 260 years if humans stopped eating meat altogether. That is 20 times longer, giving humanity ample time to develop alternative energy sources".

- "Raising livestock for their meat is a very inefficient way of generating food. Pound for pound, far more resources must be expended to produce meat than to produce grains, fruits and vegetables. For example, more than half of all water used for all purposes in the U.S. is consumed in livestock production. The amount of water used in production of the average cow is sufficient to float a destroyer (a large naval ship). While 25 gallons of water are needed to produce a pound of wheat, 5,000 gallons are needed to produce a pound of California beef. That same 5,000 gallons of water can produce 200 pounds of wheat".

- "Meat-eating is devouring oil reserves at an alarming rate. It takes nearly 78 calories of fossil fuel (oil, natural gas, etc.) energy to produce one calory of beef protein and only 2 calories of fossil fuel energy to produce one calory of soybean. If every human ate a meat-centered diet, the world's known oil reserves would last a mere 13 years. They would last 260 years if humans stopped eating meat altogether. That is 20 times longer, giving humanity ample time to develop alternative energy sources".

- "Twenty percent of the corn grown in the U.S. is eaten by people. Eighty percent of the corn and 95% of the oats grown in the U.S. is eaten by livestock. The percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock is calculated by experts as 90%",


Basicly I can go on and on and on and on and on and on..............this kind of information just does'nt input in most meat eaters head, why ?, because they prefer to live in ignorance than accept the truth, with most meat eaters it's a simple case its just a product of their upbringing and they will defend eating meat to the death but without any real reasoning behind it.


People eat meat because our bodies evovled to eat a mixture of meat and vegetables. Hence the term "hunter gatherer". Cats evolved to eat only meat. Rabbits evolved to eat only veg. Thats life really.

What do you mean "evovled to eat a mixture of meat and vegetables", you say that like we've finished evoloving already lol, trust me we've got a lot more to do and with the rate that people are turning to vegiterian food it's not hard to see where we're going.


No, it tastes good, it is good for your and is part of a healthy balanced diet. It is an excelent source of many vitamins, amino acids and other nutrients which are hard to find in vegetables. It is an excelent source of protein which can help muscle development. It helps distribute energy evenly through longer time periods and to satisfy hunger which can actually lead to healthy weight loss as oposed to eating eating a strict limited calorie vegetable diet designed for weight loss. This is along the lines of the takins diet, but note the Atkins diet is just a modern name for something which has been known for a long time.

Yes it's good for you as part of a healthy diet but so is eating the right vergiterian food, so ultimitly you have a choice to do the right thing.

Don't kid yourself in your fantasy world that all meat eaters are murders and their is no purpose in eating meat. Don't impose your ill-informed views on others.

I wish I was living in a fantasy world but sadly i'm not.




"In theory, scientists and science-fiction fans should be healthy, lean examples of the benefits of a vegetarian diet. The science of weight is simple: don't consume more calories than you use. The science of meat is equally simple: meat is bad for humans and bad for the earth.

But humans are proud creatures of illogic. We want the food we grew up with, not some new-fangled liberal revisionist food. When facts are against us, we proudly proclaim our faith that science's understanding of the facts will change before we will. I know this. I've been the fat meat-eater who just wanted to eat what I always ate. I know how hard it is to give up old pleasures.

I also know this: I love too many people who are killing themselves with food. So, if logic doesn't work for you, consider these reasons to become a vegetarian:

Vanity: The most effective weight-control diets are vegetarian.

Economy: Vegetarians save money at restaurants and grocery stores.

Politics: The meat industry helps no one but itself.

Hypochondria: There are no vegetable equivalents of mad cow disease or bird flu, and vegetarians are much less likely to get salmonella.

Longevity: Vegetarians live longer than meat-eaters.

Adventure: There's a world of great vegetarian food waiting to be explored.

Comfort: There are tasty alternatives to most forms of meat.

Energy: Vegetarians consume their food more efficiently than meat-eaters.

Dating: Vegetarians are sexy"
 
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andy8271 said:
if everyone in the world stops eating meat like vegans want ...

What ?? :confused: :confused:
That's a bit of a sweeping statement isn't it ?

Part of being a vegan isn't to stop the world eating meat. It isn't a religion you know.

I am a vegetarian - and to be honest, I don't care if you choose to eat bricks for your tea. It's up to you.

I might want animals to be treated better than they are in these slaughterhouses - but then, when i was younger, and ate meat. I wanted them to be treated better then too...



MetalStorm said:
I spite vegetarians by eating not only my portion of meat, I eat their portion and then an extra portion so that there is actually MORE CRUELTY to animals than if they stayed as omnivores as we have evolved to be.


:rolleyes: *thumbs up* :rolleyes: - You should go an have your dinner with Captain Planet.
 
lowrider007 said:
So, if logic doesn't work for you, consider these reasons to become a vegetarian:

Vanity: The most effective weight-control diets are vegetarian.Starving is the most effective method of weight control, it doesn't mean its all that good for you or all that enjoyable.

Economy: Vegetarians save money at restaurants and grocery stores.Is it worth it to eat what usually tastes like cardboard.

Politics: The meat industry helps no one but itself.And me, when I'm eating a nice juicy steak.

Hypochondria: There are no vegetable equivalents of mad cow disease or bird flu, and vegetarians are much less likely to get salmonella.People who never leave their house are less likely to be hit by a bus.

Longevity: Vegetarians live longer than meat-eaters.Maybe they do, but eating a vegetarian diet all that time must be hell.

Adventure: There's a world of great vegetarian food waiting to be explored.Mmmmmm I can taste that nutroast now!

Comfort: There are tasty alternatives to most forms of meat.Where?

Energy: Vegetarians consume their food more efficiently than meat-eaters.Chew, chew, swallow. What do you do - suck it through a straw?

Dating: Vegetarians are sexy"Only if you are a gayer.
 
iCraig said:
Because we have nervous systems and brains, we are able to perceive and react to our surrounds with decisions and will, as well as just instinct. Instead of instinct controlling a species' life, humans and some animals have a conciousness high enough to control what we do, our reactions and choices pass through our sentience instead of being controlled entirely by instinct.

Otherwise, what? Plants have a conciousness too?

Hang on, the brain is a big bucket of chemicals. The body is a big bucket of chemicals. Nerves communicate by firing electrical impulses across each other.

Rationality, instinct, choice is all just an illusion to us built up by the flow of chemicals and electrical impulses flying across the brain. It's a very nice comfortable illusion, I grant you, but it's still an illusion. If you stop the electrical impulses in a persons brain, that person ceases to have instinct, rationality etc.

I think we're a long way from being able to define exactly what a conciousness is, seeing that it is just one big theatre upon which the rationality of our actions which enables us to survive is based. By the way, that's probably the reason the conciousness evolved - a macroorganism that can think, calculate and make decisions is more likely to be successful in hunting/gathering/surving than one which doesn't. I'm playing complete devil's advocate here, but we can never know that plants aren't concious too.
 
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growse said:
Hang on, the brain is a big bucket of chemicals. The body is a big bucket of chemicals. Nerves communicate by firing electrical impulses across each other.

Rationality, instinct, choice is all just an illusion to us built up by the flow of chemicals and electrical impulses flying across the brain. It's a very nice comfortable illusion, I grant you, but it's still an illusion. If you stop the electrical impulses in a persons brain, that person ceases to have instinct, rationality etc.

Yes. Your point? I'm quite aware that when the electrical impulses die, the person ceases to exist. But we're talking about the difference between plants and animals, and how plants do not have a nervous system or brain like animals do.
 
iCraig said:
Yes. Your point? I'm quite aware that when the electrical impulses die, the person ceases to exist. But we're talking about the difference between plants and animals, and how plants do not have a nervous system or brain like animals do.

My point is that just because something isn't implemented in the same way as something else doesn't mean that it isn't implemented at all. Plants are similarly big buckets of chemicals and these occasionally move around in response to a stimulus. The very fact that a plant does respond to a stimulus means it has some way of processing what's going on around it, and what is a conciousness other than the ability to react to what's going on around you?

lowrider007 said:

Oh, and who the hell are you to go round telling people what the right choice is about what they eat? I eat meat. I'm healthy. Screw you.
 
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growse said:
My point is that just because something isn't implemented in the same way as something else doesn't mean that it isn't implemented at all. Plants are similarly big buckets of chemicals and these occasionally move around in response to a stimulus. The very fact that a plant does respond to a stimulus means it has some way of processing what's going on around it, and what is a conciousness other than the ability to react to what's going on around you?

Well if they were so similar, don't you think a plant would have a brain too of some description? A plant responds to stimulus out of chemical reaction, a human responds to stimulant out of chemical reaction, but on a much more complex level—conciousness, will, cognitive decisions and actions, rationality, objectiveness. A plant does none of this, the reaction is rudimentary.

If a fly lands on a Venus flytrap's receptors, it closes it's jaw. If a piece of sellotape lands on it's receptors, the same thing happens. The chemical reaction only takes place because of one factor. The hairs are triggered -> the jaws close. If the kind of awareness was there as you were suggesting, it would only close for food it can digest, but the reaction isn't complicated enough.

Humans and animals have a similar process, but it's far more complicated. Surely you can see that? What are you trying to say anyway, plants have a conciousness?
 
norm said:
No because if you allowed yourself to feel guilty you'd have to stop eating what you enjoy.

I can understand that. But you are a lesser person because of it.

TBH I think your the lesser person for judging like that! I dont feel guilty because there is nothing to feel guilty about.

You should feel bad for all those innocent carrots that you cause to be violently uprooted from their nice nutrient rich home. You should feel such a lesser person as you cause the poor carrotto be thrown thrown into a suffocating plastic bag whilst they are in a super market, then to cap it all of you go and scrape all their skin of and cut their head/feet off. All this while they are still alive! then how do you finally kill them, slowly bioling them to death or roasting them in a hot oven...


You point about meat eaters being lesser is about as valid as my argument above....
 
iCraig said:
Well if they were so similar, don't you think a plant would have a brain too of some description? A plant responds to stimulus out of chemical reaction, a human responds to stimulant out of chemical reaction, but on a much more complex level—conciousness, will, cognitive decisions and actions, rationality, objectiveness. A plant does none of this, the reaction is rudimentary.

If a fly lands on a Venus flytrap's receptors, it closes it's jaw. If a piece of sellotape lands on it's receptors, the same thing happens. The chemical reaction only takes place because of one factor. The hairs are triggered -> the jaws close. If the kind of awareness was there as you were suggesting, it would only close for food it can digest, but the reaction isn't complicated enough.

Humans and animals have a similar process, but it's far more complicated. Surely you can see that? What are you trying to say anyway, plants have a conciousness?

I'm not denying it's complicated. The extent and processing done by an organism of a stimulus varies from species to species. Are humans more complex than cats? Possibly. Moreso than fish? Probably. Are fish concious? Do we know? How about emotions. Does a fish feel pain? Love? Envy? What about an oak tree?

My point is that there isn't a class of organisms which are concious and another class which aren't. Everything that lives responds to stimuli (it's part of the definition of being alive). The range of stimuli and the complexity of the response varies gradually across the species, but there's no one point whereby you can say something is or isn't concious.

The plant and animal kindoms are different because the species are built in a fundamentally different way, and yet they achieve the same result of being aware of their surroundings. I read an article in the New Scientist a long while back that was looking at research into chemicals given off by oak trees which told other oak trees information about various things - it's entirely possible that some plants can communicate with each other. Just because a plant doesn't have a brain and nervous system that you can recognise, doesn't mean it doesn't have a rudimentary way of working stuff out about what to do when given a particular stimulus.

Personally, I feel that because I can never know whether an apple has feelings, I don't really care about it. Also, I like apples. It's the same with steak.

lowrider007 said:
clam down please.

Me calm. You on high horse.
 
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growse said:
I'm not denying it's complicated. The extent and processing done by an organism of a stimulus varies from species to species. Are humans more complex than cats? Possibly. Moreso than fish? Probably. Are fish concious? Do we know? How about emotions. Does a fish feel pain? Love? Envy? What about an oak tree?

My point is that there isn't a class of organisms which are concious and another class which aren't. Everything that lives responds to stimuli (it's part of the definition of being alive). The range of stimuli and the complexity of the response varies gradually across the species, but there's no one point whereby you can say something is or isn't concious.

The plant and animal kindoms are different because the species are built in a fundamentally different way, and yet they achieve the same result of being aware of their surroundings. I read an article in the New Scientist a long while back that was looking at research into chemicals given off by oak trees which told other oak trees information about various things - it's entirely possible that some plants can communicate with each other. Just because a plant doesn't have a brain and nervous system that you can recognise, doesn't mean it doesn't have a rudimentary way of working stuff out about what to do when given a particular stimulus.

Personally, I feel that because I can never know whether an apple has feelings, I don't really care about it. Also, I like apples. It's the same with steak.



Me calm. You on high horse.


An excelent post.

Plants don't have a brain, there are a number of animals that don't have brains either. Starfish, sea anenomes, many simple moluscs and bi-valves, jelly-fish, nematodes. They have a simple nervous sytem that responds to simulus in the same way plants do. Do vegies eat muscles or oysters? What about the yeast in beer and bread or the bacteria in yogurt? And eggs- that is killing an animal prematurely?
 
norm said:
No because if you allowed yourself to feel guilty you'd have to stop eating what you enjoy.

I can understand that. But you are a lesser person because of it.

You signify all that is wrong with the vegeterian movement and do your cause no good at all.

Thou ist hollier than thy! :rolleyes:
Grow up.
 
D.P. said:
Plants don't have a brain, there are a number of animals that don't have brains either. Starfish, sea anenomes, many simple moluscs and bi-valves, jelly-fish, nematodes. They have a simple nervous sytem that responds to simulus in the same way plants do. Do vegies eat muscles or oysters? What about the yeast in beer and bread or the bacteria in yogurt? And eggs- that is killing an animal prematurely?

Well if they don't have a brain they can't have a conciousness. They are alive, but not in the same sense as humans, sorry, but if you believe they are then I give up.

By that logic, we aren't meant to eat anything! Bread contains yeast, plants have feelings, bacteria in and around all our food is living too, we better not eat that.

The eggs we eat from chickens are not fertilised, so we haven't killed it prematurely.
 
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