Google apparently suspending some business with Huawei.
- Thread starter biron_w
- Start date
Related somewhat - Will the Yanks also be gunning for DJI next? Maybe my Mavic Pro is about to become a paper weight. Just sod off and 'do one' Trump you nugget. 
https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/21/...bHK3PTSV39c2p0H1Aw3uo8aQygZYUXBwQ2EdhieQ_G1MI
https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/21/...bHK3PTSV39c2p0H1Aw3uo8aQygZYUXBwQ2EdhieQ_G1MI
Caporegime
- Joined
- 9 Nov 2009
- Posts
- 25,342
- Location
- Planet Earth
Some of the posts here remind of the stuff people decades ago said about Japan and South Korea,ie,they only copy and don't do anything themselves.
Then when they suddenly started doing their own thing,it was the same shock. Remember what happened to US and UK industries,once the Japanese and South Koreans entered their stride?? The car industry anyone? Ships? Cameras?? Hifi?
All because people thought they could not innovate or do anything so became complacent. This is history repeating itself. I told people for years the Chinese would start actually innovating. I told people for years,that to make a quick buck,transferring production over to foreign countries would give them a running start to learn how things work,etc and that we were only giving ourselves a false sense of security by thinking they were dumb and could only copy.
I told people for years,that our companies going for jacking up prices,trying to reduce production costs,cutting longterm R and D,holding back implementation of tech to save money,etc would lead to our technical edge being degraded.
It is also shows a lack of understanding about Huawei as a company too.
They are one of the few fully vertically orientated phone companies in the world - only Apple and Samsung design things like their own custom SOCs,etc to a similar level and Huawei also makes it own modems for its phones,which only few companies like Qualcomm and Samsung can do.
People do realise Huawei has a ton of its own patents due to this??
https://www.zdnet.com/article/huawei-the-biggest-filer-of-patents-with-the-epo-in-2017/
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-s...tents-in-2018-surpassing-huawei-idUKKBN1QT0OW
https://www.straitstimes.com/world/...-domination-of-un-patent-applications-in-2018
https://ca.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idCAKCN1QZ2PP-OCABS
https://www.totaltele.com/502503/Hu...er-for-innovation-filing-5405-patents-in-2018
Why do people keep clinging to this notion,Huawei is just copying everything. They have a ton of patents,hence why they are leading in 5G. Apple and Samsung spend less money as a proportion of their income on R and D than Huawei do.
I have been following this for the last few years and its shocking people couldn't see this coming.
People never took them seriously and now its panic stations when it appears they might be doing their own R and D.
This is why the US is worried as this is not US copied technology,this is Chinese tech,so they probably don't have a 100% insight into it.
Then when they suddenly started doing their own thing,it was the same shock. Remember what happened to US and UK industries,once the Japanese and South Koreans entered their stride?? The car industry anyone? Ships? Cameras?? Hifi?
All because people thought they could not innovate or do anything so became complacent. This is history repeating itself. I told people for years the Chinese would start actually innovating. I told people for years,that to make a quick buck,transferring production over to foreign countries would give them a running start to learn how things work,etc and that we were only giving ourselves a false sense of security by thinking they were dumb and could only copy.
I told people for years,that our companies going for jacking up prices,trying to reduce production costs,cutting longterm R and D,holding back implementation of tech to save money,etc would lead to our technical edge being degraded.
It is also shows a lack of understanding about Huawei as a company too.
They are one of the few fully vertically orientated phone companies in the world - only Apple and Samsung design things like their own custom SOCs,etc to a similar level and Huawei also makes it own modems for its phones,which only few companies like Qualcomm and Samsung can do.
People do realise Huawei has a ton of its own patents due to this??
https://www.zdnet.com/article/huawei-the-biggest-filer-of-patents-with-the-epo-in-2017/
2017 said:
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-s...tents-in-2018-surpassing-huawei-idUKKBN1QT0OW
2018 said:
https://www.straitstimes.com/world/...-domination-of-un-patent-applications-in-2018
https://ca.reuters.com/article/businessNews/idCAKCN1QZ2PP-OCABS
2019 said:
https://www.totaltele.com/502503/Hu...er-for-innovation-filing-5405-patents-in-2018
2019 said:
Why do people keep clinging to this notion,Huawei is just copying everything. They have a ton of patents,hence why they are leading in 5G. Apple and Samsung spend less money as a proportion of their income on R and D than Huawei do.
I have been following this for the last few years and its shocking people couldn't see this coming.
People never took them seriously and now its panic stations when it appears they might be doing their own R and D.
This is why the US is worried as this is not US copied technology,this is Chinese tech,so they probably don't have a 100% insight into it.
Last edited:
Granted, I don't know a huge amount about this, but I'm not sure any of that is relevant, is it? (I guess it's relevant in that Huawei are HUGE, which I think we've known for a little while now) It's more about the founder of Huawei has a slightly sketch past and that Huawei could own most of the US 5G infrastructure and what then happens if the Chinese govt. ask them to... make some alternations to their firmware?
Soldato
- Joined
- 13 Apr 2013
- Posts
- 13,015
- Location
- La France
5G is not “Chinese tech”. It’s an unnecessary development of the 3GPP standards beyond 4G which none of the network operators can really afford and none of their customers need nor understand. Doesn’t mean that operators won’t mortgage their cats to roll 5G out though, as marketing will be telling them that they must have it to remain competitive.
Huawei are filing patents left, right and centre in an attempt to have the same IP stranglehold on 5G that Qualcomm had on CDMA.
Huawei are filing patents left, right and centre in an attempt to have the same IP stranglehold on 5G that Qualcomm had on CDMA.
as you say ... plus, quantity of huawei patents does not communicate how important/necessary/essential they are for their competitors.
( tech companies I've worked for, have big bonusses for patent filing, potentially beyond their merit )
...
A recent legal article, where huawei, is apparently, disputing, and refusing to pay, for 4G essential/sep patents it is believed to be using
http://ipkitten.blogspot.com/2019/04/breaking-unwired-planet-v-huawei-part.html
bad news for the US companys if your revenues are anywhere between 13 and 44% supplying huawei...its just sounds like an ill thought out policy as usual
Caporegime
- Joined
- 9 Nov 2009
- Posts
- 25,342
- Location
- Planet Earth
Yet you also ignored a post by another person about the Intel-Apple-Qualcomm fight about the modems where Qualcomm won that. Care to comment on that??
But none of this is relevant to your view Huawei does zero R and D and makes only copies of tech.
Now look at the size of the competing companies - so as a percentage of their income,Huawei spends an inordinate amount on R and D,and most of its done in China where overheads are lower too.
So if they are copying everything why are they leading in 5G tech? They used a Chinese made time machine to copy one of yours from the future?
Now you are backtracking - first you say they copy everything and now you are saying that despite them doing loads of their own R and D,and being the one of the top companies for patent applications,it doesn't matter.
All you are doing is quoting hyperbolic articles from CNN and blogs to desperately show that Huawei only copies - the problem is that people like you are in stuck in the past and said the same about the Japanese and South Koreans decades ago. They can only copy,etc. So all it lead to was our companies and our governments being complacent and putting short term profit over longterm innovations.
Plus who enabled those companies - China with its special Shaolin mind powers?? Nope,its our companies cutting costs and shifting all production to cheaper countries,which meant they learnt how to build these things. Has it not even sunk in why so many foreign students in universities are from China?? Over the last few decades they have been doing this,so they have more and more technically educated class of people in their country.
Now,do people think Japan and South Korea are copying?? No,because by the time we realised they were doing their own things,it was too late to stop them.
So keep fooling yourself into believing that they can only copy. They have 1000s of patents,and they are filing more and more each year.
It was the same linear thinking with the Japanese car industries. They came out of nowhere and even using import restrictions never stopped them,and if our governments and car companies had actually responded by making better products in the first place,Japan would not have taken so much of the global car market.
I told people they would start to push their own things years ago,if our companies didn't stop pushing short term profit over long term innovation. This is what happens when you are so worried about the short term stock price,and speculation on share price. You maximise your selling price,giving financial room for new competitors to come in(like Huawei). You reduce long-term innovation by dropping the amount of R and D,which you can see with many of our companies pushing less patents,since it costs money which is not instantly regained in the short term. You then hold back in implementing tech since it costs more.
All this has lead to,is Chinese companies catching up as we have artificially gimped our own technical progress for short term gain.
In fact when it comes to phone cameras,why do you think Nokia and the Chinese firms have lightview and folded optics before leaders Samsung and Apple??
These were legally licensed from US,Israeli and European companies. Samsung and Apple couldn't be bothered,hence why competitors are making better products.
It is literally the reason they are being banned in the US - oh,for national security reasons we can't use it as we don't fully understand the tech and they will put XYZ into it and we don't know if they will spy on us.
Its relevant since one or two people here are implying Huawei is copying everything. If they copied everything there would be zero security concerns as would be our tech,except it isn't,so they are contradicting themselves.
Even in the UK and Germany,we are still going to use some of their equipment. We forced Huawei to form a joint analysis centre with GCHQ. The most we have heard is some of the software backend was lax but still we are doing the correct thing and checking it all:
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/huawei-gchq-security-evaluation-uk
https://www.ft.com/content/90c07bbe-38ce-11e9-b856-5404d3811663
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/15/germany-reportedly-says-huawei-can-stay-in-5g-race.html
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/02/19/germany_huawei_5g_security/
So both Germany and the UK have looked at the tech and said it looks OK to a degree,but the fact is its not copied and that is the main concern some countries are having.
Last edited:
Caporegime
- Joined
- 9 Nov 2009
- Posts
- 25,342
- Location
- Planet Earth
What I find more worrying is some here are actually believing China isn't doing any R and D and is just copying everything. If they were 100% copying stuff,then the security excuse couldn't be used!!
This is the same thing people said about Japan and South Korea who also like China were used by our companies for a cheaper place to make stuff,or had their own stuff rebranded by our companies to make more dosh. By the time we realised they had moved past merely being an OEM source,it was too late.
I honestly hope this is a wake-up call for our own governments and companies,to stop being so obsessed about short term share price speculation. The problem is not only China,but countries like India,etc which will increasingly push into developing tech and making it. They will quite happily cut margins to make sure they can get more sales,and keep as many people employed(huge countries you see),and also use national security concerns,etc to push developing their own stuff so they are less reliant on our tech.
Then you have "market leaders" like Samsung and Apple not even implementing folded optics,lightview cameras,etc and Huawei,Oppo,etc and these were licensed from Israeli,US and European firms.
This reminds of what happened to companies like Kodak - they just sat on so many innovations they developed(well many of it related to digital cameras),and went the cheaper way of pushing film,and got hammered by competitors.
Lots of things going on the last couple of hours...
1) Memo issued at ARM with order to stop working with Huawei: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48363772
2) Huawei 5G phones dropped for both EE and Vodafone 5G launches: https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/22/18635313/huawei-phones-dropped-uk-carrier-ee-5g-mate-20-launch
Damn...
1) Memo issued at ARM with order to stop working with Huawei: https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48363772
2) Huawei 5G phones dropped for both EE and Vodafone 5G launches: https://www.theverge.com/2019/5/22/18635313/huawei-phones-dropped-uk-carrier-ee-5g-mate-20-launch
Damn...
who are these some ? - no one said Huawei copy everything and have no independant innovationWhat I find more worrying is some here are actually believing China isn't doing any R and D and is just copying everything. If they were 100% copying stuff,then the security excuse couldn't be used!!
huawei license arm/intel cores, but, without reverse engineering of the silicon, it is difficult to confirm that they do not innovate by introducing a security backdoor into the behavioural/VHDL description (for later stuxnet type penetration - Israel have some good innovators - whatsapp ...)
Reliance on chinese 5g infrastrucure, still poses the same security issues as using their military hardware, or reactor design.
(besides - I think the role of a 5G network is being currently overplayed in UK economic effciciency yield ... gve me a decent 2g signal first)
I agree that western companies have skimped on R&D, deferring to profit, and, were also short sighted with respect to utilizing and boot-strapping the chinese manufacturers, albeit they have been state-subsidised, using the monies china obtains through the trade-balance,
(I am surprised the USA apple customers are not more nationalistic there, wrt to device manufacture location, Trump needs to push a few buttons)
Caporegime
- Joined
- 9 Nov 2009
- Posts
- 25,342
- Location
- Planet Earth
The issue is that why do they need to reverse engineer,when they made most of the parts? Decades of doing that gives you a good idea of learning how stuff works,just like to a degree when we used Japan and South Korea in similar ways as cheaper sources to make stuff. Then having millions of Chinese students abroad has meant they have bang up to date knowledge in the latest research methodology.
Also,the issue is our companies are trying to overprice stuff - look at how Samsung and Apple are trying to push phone prices back to 1990s level,and it means Chinese firms are not even pricing that low,ie,just inhabiting the older price niches.
Look at camera phone tech,lightview cameras and folding optics. I was surprised no one was using this,especially Apple and Samsung,yet it was Chinese firms and Nokia(which makes phones in China) which did. Yet look at who developed it - US,Israeli and European companies. They couldn't be arsed licensing it,and just used cheaper hardware.....on luxury priced phones. Isn't it no surprise when the Chinese firms just sell more worldwide. Its much worse abroad where these Chinese firms have more marketshare than here in Europe. The phones look and feel expensive,and have a ton of features for a reasonable price. This is why companies like Xiaomi are the biggest phone seller in markets like India,and even build phones in the country.
These figures don't tell the whole story. For one Vivo,OPPO,OnePlus and Realme are one firm owned by BBK Electronics,so they are probably third just behind Huawei. Secondly many of the Chinese firms have barely any presence in the US,and only have gotten into Europe in any real way in the last few years.
It just shows you how much of the non-US and non-European markets these Chinese firms have.
Our firms are so obsessed with short term margins,they are loosing the rest of the world to Chinese firms.
Even with cellular infrastructure China will provide development loans to countries,hence making it more affordable.
So my concern is even if we stopped buying from them in the west our lot will just rip us off even more as they want ever expanding record margins and have forgotten about the consumer,China will just win the rest of the world by default due to cost,as they are more worried about keeping people employed and being less reliant on foreign firms. Remember,the memory of the Opium war,ie,what the Chinese call the "100 years of shame" is what is driving a part of all of this and their president said this.
We need to think longer term.
Even when it comes to state subsidies - we do the same thing here in a roundabout way,by giving contracts to different local companies to keep them afloat,like our own UK government supporting local shipyards or in the US aerospace industry,ie,if LM gets a fighter contract,Boeing gets a trainer contract. In fact one of the reasons why what Elon Musk appears so innovative is because ULA and others,just sat on their arse for decades having a monopoly,and even using Russian engines(since the US engines were worse!). The reason is since ULA makes all the US ICBMs and SLBMs,so the government kept them afloat,otherwise their would be no local firms do make the missiles. Even Arianespace in France is an offshoot of their own national missile programme,and they kind of support each other. Samsung also has very deep links with the South Korean government,ie,they make a ton of aerospace and military equipment too,so again they make a ton from state contracts.
The problem here is even despite all the support given to our companies,they want to make luxury and high products products using cheap labour. See,I can understand making cheaply priced stuff,but not £700+ phones,etc which should be made(or at least assembled) in Europe or the US. Its the same with so much other stuff too. £200 to £1000 kitchen appliances made in China,etc - you know very well those firms will get a pittance of that anyway and probably won't make much more than a £100 one they make in the same factory complex. Yet,20 years ago these would have been made in Europe profitably.
In the case of Apple their fans have been going on for years on how much money they make and how much money they have tucked away - it just shows you how cheap the products are to make,and how much they are selling them for.
Last edited:
First one was ZTE and they settled the case with US.
I know BBK for their DVD players, no regional lock and very cheap, always buy one when I go to HK many years ago.
Some Chinese companies just don't have to worry margins, big one like Huawei they have state backing, easy to get funding or loan from state owned banks.
Btw, cost in China is rising fast, and many factories are moving or already moved out of China even well before Trump became US president.
Caporegime
- Joined
- 9 Nov 2009
- Posts
- 25,342
- Location
- Planet Earth
First one was ZTE and they settled the case with US.
I know BBK for their DVD players, no regional lock and very cheap, always buy one when I go to HK many years ago.
Some Chinese companies just don't have to worry margins, big one like Huawei they have state backing, easy to get funding or loan from state owned banks.
Btw, cost in China is rising fast, and many factories are moving or already moved out of China even well before Trump became US president.
Yeah,but Chinese firms are also investing in manufacturing and transport in other countries,as part of the BRI. This involves countries like Greece,Serbia,parts of Africa,etc.
Also,companies like Samsung,etc get state backing too in the form of big contracts awarded to them by the South Korean government. Apple,also spends very little of its money on R and D,considering how much it has,and US firms do get help in terms of preferential tax breaks,employment laws which favour them,etc.
This is a bigger problem - look at games. All the increasing prices,loot crates,etc are down to this obsession with short term margins. Games devs are still paid a pittance,so many studios are shut down,etc yet games publishers are having record profits year after year,yet their stock can still fall if it is not "record enough",and this is a real problem.
Remember,sub prime?? It was speculation on repackaged bad debts. The dot-com bubble,speculation on profits. The 1929 crash,speculation on profits and margins fuel by massive consumer debt.
Now,there is speculation on companies having to make rapid growth phase profit and margin increases which are more typical of small startups,instead of slower and steadier growth. This has lead to companies(even Apple) still making record profits and margins and still having their stock fall. I have seen this happen to friends,when a company makes a record quarter,but not record enough for analysts,so the stock falls,pay is frozen,benefits slashed,etc.
This is the bigger problem here - to keep margins and profits ever increasing at record levels,our lot cut longterm R and D,sit on developed tech,since its cheaper to use existing stuff,cut production costs by cutting jobs over here,and then jack up pricing leading to plenty of wiggle space for competitors to fill. Its complacency which has lead to this,the same complacency which we had with Japan and South Korea. Now we take for granted their leadership in various areas. This wasn't always the case.
I give you an example of a company which got complacent - Intel. They merely had to drop prices short-term to blunt the effect of Ryzen. They didn't and after years of rehashing the same old stuff,gave space for a near bankrupt AMD to make a return and this is what happened last time in the late 90s and early 2000s to them. The same thing happened to Apple in late 80s,when they underestimated Microsoft.
In fact the biggest example of complacency in the last 20 years was the US firm Kodak - they developed so much of the innovations in modern digital imaging. Then they sat on them and thought film would last forever. Except foreign competitors in Japan saw more potential and made better use of the patents.
Last edited:
The profit made by apple may exceed their competitors despite the smaller worldwide market share (to wit the X's price, smaller volume, but sustained company profit),
so Apple have postitoned themselves via clever branding at a market point where increased volume and selling for lower margins abroad might not yield higher profits,
are the Chinese themselves even immune to the siren allure of the apples marketting ?
Foreign currency should be more important to Apple, so whether they will have to compete at a lower price point, against the dragon ... rather than exploiting there own populus
I don't think Apples technology/R&D is too delinquent for optical, , rather the importance of the camera and audio systems have been de-prioritized versus displays/cpu-power and battery life ... the old Nokia had the lead there with Zeiss, so the tech could be regained in the west, if the end customer wanted it.
[
Arm have decades working with fab's creating power/perfromance/area effective architecture - reproducing that in China takes time - the holy grail
]
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48363772
"ARM instructed employees to halt "all active contracts, support entitlements, and any pending engagements” with Huawei and its subsidiaries to comply with a recent US trade clampdown."
"ARM instructed employees to halt "all active contracts, support entitlements, and any pending engagements” with Huawei and its subsidiaries to comply with a recent US trade clampdown."