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*** GPU Hierarchy ***

Caporegime
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Posts
31,046
Ray tracing is only a gimmick if you can't use it or don't play games with it.

Given you have consoles adding RT wherever they can now and it's pretty much in 90% of the games that gets released these days, it's far from a gimmick, if the first sentence applies, that's on the end user, not the industry.

Developers have spoken out about how great RT is in the here and now, it benefits them vastly with their workflow and in return also benefits visuals and in some cases, it can actually perform better than the old rasterization ways (as shown with metro ee).

To be fair I've not used it myself only seen videos that perhaps don't do it justice. I can see the attraction of the new tech but until it's mainstream it won't got full stride. As I understand it the current implementation still "cheats" a bit and isn't true ray tracing?

What we see currently is just the tip of the iceberg for RT.

If you want the full RT experience then likes of quake, serious sam, doom, minecraft, mario etc. is the best showcase to see how the future will look.

In terms of modern games with somewhat proper RT implementation, metro ee is the best so far, next best one will be avatar and probably even excel past metro ee, it definitely will have the game world design advantage to show it of better anyway.

DL 2, cp 2077, chernobylite all have RT "added" on rather than being done from the ground up like the above but they are still very good showcases. Likes of RE village, FC 6, riftbreaker are using significantly less RT because of them being amd sponsored but the effects still make a noticeable difference if you know what to look for.

It definitely is something you need to experience for yourself though as it is quite cool seeing how lighting interacts with the environment as you move around and how shadows get cast and diffuse depending on distance, strength of light sources etc. likewise with reflections and not having them distort/disappear like they do with SSR.

IMO, RT is the first proper leap in graphics we have had in a long time (unless someone can name something else?). Sadly some people just don't understand it or rather don't want to hear it for whatever reason. I would advise watching digital foundrys videos on it as they know what to look for and explain the advantages and disadvantages of it very well.

Its usually overblown and not how light really works either - shiny puddles? Nope not how they work. But if Ray Tracing was used as in the real world, not overblown and with thousands of sources, even at 100x100 pixels a dlss rtx 3090ti would fall over (ok that is also an exageration but you get the idea). The way Nv (and AMD) use ray tracing is a mix of rasterising and path tracing.
Is real life overblown as well?

Do a google search of reflections, puddles or whatever and you'll find, ray tracing effects are considerably more realistic than rasterization ways. Unless having your reflections disappear depending on your angle/position is normal?

I wish likes of days gone and ark had RT:

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Soldato
Joined
17 Jun 2004
Posts
7,596
Location
Eastbourne , East Sussex.
UE5 Lumen > current not proper ray tracing.

because of hardware limitations real world `ray tracing` with thousands of light sources cant work in games, even with upscaling. Some titles literally have 1 light source and that is then path traced - the real world doesnt work like that. Its how pixar worked 30 years ago, but not now. As for Digital Shilleries - they publish based on who pays them the most
 
Caporegime
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Posts
31,046
UE5 Lumen > current not proper ray tracing.

because of hardware limitations real world `ray tracing` with thousands of light sources cant work in games, even with upscaling. Some titles literally have 1 light source and that is then path traced - the real world doesnt work like that. Its how pixar worked 30 years ago, but not now. As for Digital Shilleries - they publish based on who pays them the most
Define "not proper" ray tracing?

You do realise that most of digital foundrys content (and the most popular content too) is based around consoles, which just so happen to be amd powered..... and regardless of that, their content is good and any points they make/show is backed up with evidence and comparisons. They also just so happen to have insider info on these technologies since they have connections with the people that use these technologies i.e. the developers of said games hence how they were able to show 4a enhanced workflow for metro rasterization vs ray tracing, unless of course, you or someone else can debunk their videos on matters involving RT?
 
Soldato
Joined
17 Jun 2004
Posts
7,596
Location
Eastbourne , East Sussex.
Define "not proper" ray tracing?

You do realise that most of digital foundrys content (and the most popular content too) is based around consoles, which just so happen to be amd powered..... and regardless of that, their content is good and any points they make/show is backed up with evidence and comparisons. They also just so happen to have insider info on these technologies since they have connections with the people that use these technologies i.e. the developers of said games hence how they were able to show 4a enhanced workflow for metro rasterization vs ray tracing, unless of course, you or someone else can debunk their videos on matters involving RT?

Just as they had an `exclusive` review of the RTX cards - all bought and paid for by Nvidia? Nope Digital Shilleries are as bad as JayZ and his employer EVGA nowadays
 
Caporegime
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Posts
31,046
Just as they had an `exclusive` review of the RTX cards - all bought and paid for by Nvidia? Nope Digital Shilleries are as bad as JayZ and his employer EVGA nowadays
And? That still doesn't tarnish their work on the whole, particularly their RT videos, again unless you or someone else can prove otherwise..... Not to mention if their RT or other videos where "influenced" or partnered up with nvidia in anyway, they have to disclose that as per the law.

You do also realise AMD (and all tech brands for that matter) also provide pretty much every tech press with samples etc. too?
 
Soldato
Joined
26 May 2014
Posts
2,955
Ray tracing... it's pretty much in 90% of the games that gets released these days
That's a fantasy. It's not even 5% of games that get released these days if we're actually talking all titles and not just the latest AAA moviegame slop. Even limited to those you have plenty of titles being released without it, and even more where it's pointless and barely makes any difference. The actual transformative ray tracing experiences like Metro: Exodus EE and Dying Light 2 are few and far between. For the most part it's worthless "upgrades" like ray traced shadows in World of Warcraft, which you'd struggle to notice were on without a side by side comparison.
 
Caporegime
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Posts
31,046
That's a fantasy. It's not even 5% of games that get released these days if we're actually talking all titles and not just the latest AAA moviegame slop. Even limited to those you have plenty of titles being released without it, and even more where it's pointless and barely makes any difference. The actual transformative ray tracing experiences like Metro: Exodus EE and Dying Light 2 are few and far between. For the most part it's worthless "upgrades" like ray traced shadows in World of Warcraft, which you'd struggle to notice were on without a side by side comparison.

And see this point ladies and gentlemen :D

Ray tracing is only a gimmick if you can't use it or don't play games with it or don't understand it.

You do realise, those AAA titles you talk about are the most played games?

Suppose subjective at the end of the day as "most" of my recent games I've played have had RT in some form (and made a noticeable difference), just of the top of my head (some of these are replays since I wanted to experience with my new QD-oled display):

- guardians of the galaxy
- doom eternal
- DL 2
- cp 2077
- life is strange
- riftbreaker
- resident evil village
- deathloop
- chernobylite
- control

Games I've played recently which doesn't have RT:

- rust
- ark
- lego star wars
- breathedge

That's just of the top of my head.

So for the games I play and enjoy and I imagine majority of the people are the same, more than 5%.....

Oh and just announced :cool:

F1 22 will have Ray Tracing Shadows, Reflections & Ambient Occlusion + First PC Gameplay Footage


"no one uses it!!!!"

:cry:

PS.

I won't disagree on there being titles were it is pointless or not noticeable but that is far and few between these days, main one that comes to my mind is tomb raider but that was one of the first games released with it, RT has come along way since. I also wouldn't base RT effects on just one game either.... If a RT effect is implemented well and suits the art style, it makes a huge difference e.g. just RT shadows in riftbreaker:

 
Caporegime
Joined
12 Jul 2007
Posts
40,574
Location
United Kingdom
And see this point ladies and gentlemen :D



You do realise, those AAA titles you talk about are the most played games?

Suppose subjective at the end of the day as "most" of my recent games I've played have had RT in some form (and made a noticeable difference), just of the top of my head (some of these are replays since I wanted to experience with my new QD-oled display):

- guardians of the galaxy
- doom eternal
- DL 2
- cp 2077
- life is strange
- riftbreaker
- resident evil village
- deathloop
- chernobylite
- control

Games I've played recently which doesn't have RT:

- rust
- ark
- lego star wars
- breathedge

That's just of the top of my head.

So for the games I play and enjoy and I imagine majority of the people are the same, more than 5%.....

Oh and just announced :cool:

F1 22 will have Ray Tracing Shadows, Reflections & Ambient Occlusion + First PC Gameplay Footage


"no one uses it!!!!"

:cry:

PS.

I won't disagree on there being titles were it is pointless or not noticeable but that is far and few between these days, main one that comes to my mind is tomb raider but that was one of the first games released with it, RT has come along way since. I also wouldn't base RT effects on just one game either.... If a RT effect is implemented well and suits the art style, it makes a huge difference e.g. just RT shadows in riftbreaker:

Without looking (no cheating Nexus :p) how many of those games do you think are in the top 100 most played games on Steam?

I'll give you a clue, it's somewhere between 0-10.
 
Associate
Joined
6 Nov 2005
Posts
2,417
stray thought, you've linked to the current get cards in stock. but OC do still have 1050tis, 1650s, 1660s and 2060s for sale dunno if its worth linking those as well. I'm sure OC would love to shift them :p
 
Caporegime
Joined
17 Mar 2012
Posts
47,662
Location
ARC-L1, Stanton System
Is the 6900XT really at the same tier as the 3070TI? Its faster than the 3080, same performance as the 3080TI but doesn't go in the Elite Tier while the 3080TI does? will the 6950XT also not go in the Elite Tier?



YdY4SR2.png

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Caporegime
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Posts
31,046
^^

With RT and DLSS thrown into the mix as per Armageus post, it is:


An old video too but his predictions were pretty much spot on. Of course AMD have FSR 1 now but it isn't even in the same league as dlss and we're "still" waiting on FSR 2....

If you take away those 2 things then of course a 6900xt would be better but why remove ones strongest advantages that impacts the real world usage scenarios....
 
Caporegime
Joined
17 Mar 2012
Posts
47,662
Location
ARC-L1, Stanton System
^^

With RT and DLSS thrown into the mix as per Armageus post, it is:


If you take away those 2 things then of course a 6900xt would be better but why remove ones strongest advantages that impacts the real world usage scenarios....

With FSR2 and RT games becoming more optimised for AMD that's increasingly no longer true, sure you can point at Cyberpunk and Control but how much longer are we going to go on pointing at those games while ignoring everything else?

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Also.

The raytracing debate needs moving to it's own thread - this isn't the place

That rather suggests RT has nothing to do with how he arranged this table.
 
Last edited:
Caporegime
Joined
4 Jun 2009
Posts
31,046
With FSR2 and games becoming more optimised for AMD that's increasingly no longer true, sure you can point at Cyberpunk and Control but how much longer are we going to go on pointing at those games while ignoring everything else?

m4JfgGH.png

Also.



That rather suggests RT has nothing to do with how he arranged this table.
Edited my post above:

An old video too but his predictions were pretty much spot on. Of course AMD have FSR 1 now but it isn't even in the same league as dlss and we're "still" waiting on FSR 2....

Define what you mean by more optimised for amd? Using lesser RT effects? If so, that's not "optimisation", that's reducing RT graphical effects.... Proper optimisation to me is looking at metro ee.....

There is more than just them RT games and control + cp2077 you know....

Also, why are people comparing amds top flagship to nvidias second flagship? Should it not be vs the 3090ti? Wasn't this why amd released the 6950xt?

I would take this post as Armageus looking at the "overall" feature set on offer:

It's still a very capable 1440p/144fps cad though, and in non-vram limited scenarios (i.e. lower a couple of settings), noticeably quicker than anything in the tier below. VRAM alone shouldn't be a deciding factor.
 
Soldato
Joined
21 Jul 2005
Posts
20,049
Location
Officially least sunny location -Ronskistats
With FSR2 and RT games becoming more optimised for AMD that's increasingly no longer true, sure you can point at Cyberpunk and Control but how much longer are we going to go on pointing at those games while ignoring everything else?

Quite a parrot statement tbh retorting these games, I seen that before but you are quite right to mention it as its suitable for the narrative.
 
Caporegime
Joined
17 Mar 2012
Posts
47,662
Location
ARC-L1, Stanton System
If i didn't know better i would look at this GPU Hierarchy and think anything from AMD above the 6700XT is junky overpriced crap. As it says in it, 3070TI tier stuff, maintaining the narrative that AMD don't make top tier cards, just over priced cards.
 
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