Poll: Grammar Schools back on the table.
- Thread starter Danthus
- Start date
I would like to see the non grammar schools teach true skills so a non academic child could leave school able to drive, operate skilled machinery or carry out one or two skilled occupations to a competent working level, I believe they do this in Germany.
I don't think its a natural argument for a grammar school, but its a natural argument for any mechanic which segregates....especially if you are on the side that benefits.
The example is extreme, but from a purely selfish perspective one of the positives of a grammar school education is the segregation.
And that's my point.
I could make an argument that the Iraq war was a good thing if I was on the side of a Haliburton executive. I'm just calling out that it's a personal viewpoint and depends upon that for its argument.
Soldato
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a) None of her peers did. Most are still in the same run-down area of derbyshire.
b) Given the "old" grammar schools went in the 1960's, the country has massively changed since then. You would need some massive assumptions for evidence either way. I think other factors in the world have been of far greater significance.
I agree ONE example doesn't prove a case, but it motivates me to support it as my family benefits. All politics is personal. I am of the opinion that selection by ability is a good thing. Smart people are everywhere and giving those from poorer areas a better chance by having a wider net to catch them is a good thing.
Maybe I am naïve, but I think so.
I do not think it would make any difference to a University application and a future position/job. Your school's reputation IMO only really makes a difference if you go to one of the 'Eton' batch of schools.
But I believe the child who attained well in the comprehensive would have achieved this at a disadvantage to the grammar school child.
I think so. Grammar schools would have quite a way to go before they got to the level of Eton where it was a signifier of some special connections or privilege. The concern I think is more about how the school affects a child's chance of getting those results.
I think it's a good idea people need to get the outmoded idea of working with your hands as being a failure, it's bonkers. Those who work on the tools in most trades earn much more than some mullet who went to uni and completed a bull degree and now sits in a call centre.
Get some pride back in being a working man (or woman) bring book smart doesn't make someone a success and if I had my son a choice today he would be getting a real trade.
Get some pride back in being a working man (or woman) bring book smart doesn't make someone a success and if I had my son a choice today he would be getting a real trade.
Soldato
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Thank you for justifying my last point
You want to make teachers lives harder? Your horrible!
You're definitely going to be one of the crap teachers Diagro
Even the likes of bricklayers are on more per hour than your average Uni grad. Haven't we outsourced a lot of our manufacturing though which is what led to the swing towards more office based jobs.
Completely agree with you. I have a couple of friends who are self made millionaires and both work in a trade.
The reality is though that you only get to understand that as an adult when its too late and you have already invested a small fortune in your education (University included) to chase your aspirations of being a white collar worker. We are all brainwashed and pre-disposed to think this way.
Yes, my ex spat pure hate at me when I told the lads if they wanted they didn't have to go to uni and could get a trade of their choice if they wanted, I was hoping to give them a useful transferable skill so they could travel around the world, build leasure boats in an Australian seaside town type of thing.
I am massively for Grammar schools, it allows kids that are bright to be pushed and surrounded by like minded children.
One of the main things I've heard being banded around as a negative is that the "middle class" parents are more focused on ensuring their kids do well, and therefore more likely to pass the 11+, thus giving the middle class an advantage over the poorer kids.
Whilst there is certainly a correlation in that, it feels to me that the link is in the opposite direction! It's not that families are poorer thus care less, I'd put forward that they are probably poor/lower class BECAUSE they care less. No amount of improvements in the schooling system can fix the nurture issues that create the disobedient and disruptive kids that have no interest in learning. Point is proven by the people in this thread, or in my Grammar school, where kids from poorer backgrounds that had parents that actually cared still did exceptionally well at my school...those where the parents didn't care, didn't make it to that school but at least didn't affect kids that wanted to do well.
The above is a bit of a brain dump during a break at work but hopefully puts across what I feel is a point that is being misconstrued constantly...
One of the main things I've heard being banded around as a negative is that the "middle class" parents are more focused on ensuring their kids do well, and therefore more likely to pass the 11+, thus giving the middle class an advantage over the poorer kids.
Whilst there is certainly a correlation in that, it feels to me that the link is in the opposite direction! It's not that families are poorer thus care less, I'd put forward that they are probably poor/lower class BECAUSE they care less. No amount of improvements in the schooling system can fix the nurture issues that create the disobedient and disruptive kids that have no interest in learning. Point is proven by the people in this thread, or in my Grammar school, where kids from poorer backgrounds that had parents that actually cared still did exceptionally well at my school...those where the parents didn't care, didn't make it to that school but at least didn't affect kids that wanted to do well.
The above is a bit of a brain dump during a break at work but hopefully puts across what I feel is a point that is being misconstrued constantly...
Exactly. I have a friend derided as being "thick" at school, he wasn't at all he just wasn't book smart and didn't excel in the enforced one size fits all learning environment we have.
Since leaving school he went on to a good level engineering officer in the merchant navy and has since left and works as an electrical engineering contractor in oil and gas earning obscene money. Getting everyone into uni isn't a success, getting people into jobs where they are skilled and succeed is.
I'm not sure we can be happy to stand back and say "it's the parent fault", and leave them to sub-standard education, when we're talking about kids who had no part in choosing their family.
There are so, so many advantages to being born to the right parents (meaning wealth, outlook or attitude), that it seems especially cruel to structure the schooling system such that it actually widens that gap.
Agree with cheesy there. My partner has just started at a new school and some of the issues the kids face there as a result of their families are disgraceful.
One boy has the local town drunk for a mother. Another basically has no family and is living rough. Another has to be fed and clothed by the school.
One boy has the local town drunk for a mother. Another basically has no family and is living rough. Another has to be fed and clothed by the school.