ETH not Eh
Greenlizard0 Premier League Football Thread ** spoilers ** [14th - 19th February 2025]
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The thing is, most would agree the squad is pretty average - it's not necessarily only a question of ability, but application and attitude as well. With the exception of a couple of players, they don't seem to be able to take Amorim's instructions on board. Even with far better players, there are always going to be question marks over his system and methods until it actually wins something (and I don't mean the Carabao Cup, although it wouldn't hurt).
On the financial side, we're told there are equally serious problems. The squad realistically needs £250-300m spending on it, assuming the transfers work out, to get anywhere near the top of the league. Spending anything at the moment seems like a challenge, according to the club, who are pleading poverty at every opportunity.
I think Amorim has got to be given 3-4 more players and a full preseason, I don't think there's another manager out there who would be likely to fare much better under the current circumstances - that's how bad it is.
On the flip side of that, you can definitely argue whether it's wise to spend our restricted budget on an untested system that, so far, seems utterly hopeless. I'm sure Ratcliffe is asking that very question right now.
On the financial side, we're told there are equally serious problems. The squad realistically needs £250-300m spending on it, assuming the transfers work out, to get anywhere near the top of the league. Spending anything at the moment seems like a challenge, according to the club, who are pleading poverty at every opportunity.
I think Amorim has got to be given 3-4 more players and a full preseason, I don't think there's another manager out there who would be likely to fare much better under the current circumstances - that's how bad it is.
On the flip side of that, you can definitely argue whether it's wise to spend our restricted budget on an untested system that, so far, seems utterly hopeless. I'm sure Ratcliffe is asking that very question right now.
But again, what’s the alternative? Somethings got to give and just doing the same old stuff as before hasn't really gotten us anywhere.
For me, I just hope they don’t bottle it and he’s given at least two years. I want to see something different and at least say it was tried.
For me, I just hope they don’t bottle it and he’s given at least two years. I want to see something different and at least say it was tried.
Caporegime
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I was aiming my comparison more on the fact Everton are a huge club in the wilderness for the past 30 years.
Caporegime
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This is my major worry. Amorim will need these players in through the door first thing to be able to get a pre-season in. Not in the last week of the window.
Soldato
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Man U players are shot of confidence, it’s the culture of the club it’s rotten to the core. People ridicule Southgate but he has shown he can sort that if given the support, sort the culture out and then everything else’s follows.
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I disagree, you can't compare what a manager can do at club level with international. You don't even spend that much time with the squad when managing an international side, the squad you can change at a drop of a hat (outside of a tournament) as long as the player qualifies for England.
Soldato
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The lack time with the squad and still managing to change the culture, adds more weight to my argument surely?
I honestly think he has to go, right on the final whistle of the last game of the season. I can't see what any fans see in him as an improvement over the low bar of ETH or what they have seen that makes them think he'll get it right in time. Results are worse, performances are worse, he has alienated two of the most high profile playing assets wiping tens of millions off their value, grumbles about not being able to play his rigid and favoured style and this week we've seen all these injuries suddenly coming to light which just look like a set of players that don't want to play for him. You see it with doomed and relegation threatened managers all the time. I think anyone thinking there will be 4 or 5 big money signings coming through the door while the club are making redundancies to save pennies is deluded, he needs to get the best out of the players he has and he is proving in plain sight that he can't do that.
Have to be honest so far the only improvement ive seen with Amorim is press conferences.
I really hope it works out in the long term though, we shall see what happens next season.
However giving a player 3 mins is an atrocious mistake from him today you give a player 15-20 mins, might not of changed the game but we was 1-0 down anyway.
I really hope it works out in the long term though, we shall see what happens next season.
However giving a player 3 mins is an atrocious mistake from him today you give a player 15-20 mins, might not of changed the game but we was 1-0 down anyway.
I agree, this is our best option. My other worry is that recruitment will need to be spot on, and that's far from likely based on past evidence.
Difficult to argue with this view as well. There are definitely some worrying signs and concerns are mounting, but this was always going to be a really difficult period and we just have to grin and bear it.
I'll be honest too and say if it wasn't for his communication style, there would be serious alarm bells ringing. However, his general manner and work at Sporting should buy him some goodwill, although that is starting to evaporate with a lot of people.
The alternative is?
Well that's the circular argument isn't it?
The club needs to rebuild and that is going to take a few years of patience and perseverance as well as riding out bad results but you need the right person in there, there’s nothing saying he is the man for the job. Can you make an argument for him being the one to rebuild over the next 3 or 4 years (or more)? An organisation like that needs the right people in key positions and you aren't always going to get it right first time, case in point with Ashworth, even Sporting sacked his successor less than two months into the gig.
Its going backwards and you are in prime relegation form, a combination of low quality of the bottom 3 and ETH's platform he left will stop them going down this season. I'd be appointing Iraola before someone else does.
If you judge him purely on results and performances then he's been a disaster and you could justifiably make an argument for sacking him but he's not been appointed as a firefighter/quick fix appointment. Utd (you'd hope although who knows with them) presumably took a measured decision to bring this guy in knowing that he wants to play a completely different formation and style of play than what has been before. Now obviously they would have hoped and expected for an uplift in results and performances in the short term but when you take a decision to make drastic changes, you've got to allow time for those changes to take place. You don't appoint him based on playing a certain system and style of play and then sack him before he's had a chance to implement it.
I commented in the summer that Utd ended the transfer window weaker than they started it and you've got to think (or hope if you're a Utd fan) that the club took the long term decision to accept some short term pain in order for longer term improvements. Utd could have gone out and made some short term signings that would have slightly improved them for a few months but ultimately held them back in the longer term and I guess the same applies to the manager and how he's setting the side up. I'm sure he could have changed things and got a bit more out of the side but realistically, it's not going to turn Utd into a top 8 side so is it maybe not better to start with the managers preferred set-up now?
It's going to be fascinating to watch tbh but there's going to need to be signs of improvement sooner rather than later. A club the size of Utd can't be 15th* no matter what changes are being made as sooner or later the fans will turn (some already have) and Ratcliffe will look for a fall guy once the pressure ramps up on him. Ultimately whether that's the right thing for Utd or not, I don't know but it's the reality of what will happen.
*Chelsea finishing 12th(?) 2 seasons ago is the only time I can think of a genuinely big side struggling anything like Utd have and it's hard to defend where they are. At least Chelsea showed signs of being a decent side but Utd genuinely have looked rubbish all season.
He's a talented manager as evidenced by what he achieved at Sporting in similar circumstances. He's shown big cajones to deal with perennial issues like Marcus Rashford and to be brave enough to stick to his principles. ten Hags lasted until we were three nil down against Brentford in the second game of the season. It's a rebuild, a complete rebuild. Not a patch up job and salvage 9th. It's a test to see who wants it, who is prepared to do what is required to be a top player and not just their for the money. I still believe in him and in root cause fixes not countermeasures for short term gain.
That said I believe he is making mistakes. He should have used the subs today more than he did. I want to see performances more than points at this stage. Hopefully we get some of those before the end of the season. Amorim knew how this had to be broken up to rebuild. I suspect he didn't quite reckon for the toxic dressing room and the spate of injuries that have only made things harder. He has a vision, I'm still bought in - partly because I can't see what the alternative is. Too many of these players don't deserve another chance with yet another coach.
You can blame it on ETH but the club are now a mid-table club due to mismanagement, by the management. You can't blame it all or even most of it on ETH.
And the current INEOS lot DO have to take one some responsibility.
Sure, "they need more time" but they've not exactly made any great decisions so far. Or if they have made them, they will pay off in some distance future (not quite sure what they've done to change things long term though?). In the short term things have gone from bad to worse. I still recall some people on here saying it couldn't get worse than ETH, well, it certainly has on the pitch.
Back to the team management side of things, the club is in a precarious position, if they "invest" in Amorim and it doesn't pay off then the club will be mid table for some time yet.
Worryingly, the messaging seems to be at odds with reality, 'Project 150' seems typical corporate speak. Strikes me as senior management with big egos and no real clue.
And the current INEOS lot DO have to take one some responsibility.
Sure, "they need more time" but they've not exactly made any great decisions so far. Or if they have made them, they will pay off in some distance future (not quite sure what they've done to change things long term though?). In the short term things have gone from bad to worse. I still recall some people on here saying it couldn't get worse than ETH, well, it certainly has on the pitch.
Back to the team management side of things, the club is in a precarious position, if they "invest" in Amorim and it doesn't pay off then the club will be mid table for some time yet.
Worryingly, the messaging seems to be at odds with reality, 'Project 150' seems typical corporate speak. Strikes me as senior management with big egos and no real clue.
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They weren't though. ETH was sacked with them in 14th and I think he took over with them in 13th. 8th flattered them last season, they've been in free fall since and the competition around them have improved. Utd are/were too bad and there are/were too many teams better than Utd to say with any confidence that Utd could have qualified for Europe via the League this season with a different appointment.
To be clear I'm not defending or championing Amorim. He's shown very little so far to have any real confidence that he's the man to turn things around but when you commit to making radical changes, you've got to allow time for this changes to be made. It's like taking the decision to rebuild your house and then having cold feel after you've knocked it down. It's a bit late now, you're kind of committed to the plan.
The house has been knocked down but you can still change your mind about the person/people who you want to build the new one with. .
Weren't they going to build a football model so that the manager is less relevant? Then they go for someone who plays a style that is new to the club and essentially to the modern league, especially at the top?
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The analogy was in relation to appointing a manager who plays a completely different formation as the one before. Yes, Utd could go out and find another manager to take over from where Amorim has left off and I guess this partially answers your next question, but I'd imagine the pool of managers playing this way isn't very big.