Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [11th - 15th January 2019]

[adam cool dude]

There is more to being a manager than early good performances through. The primary and immediate thing he changed was allowing players to attack in greater numbers, with less caution. This is riskier defensively except if you tell your players to never over commit as Mourinho pretty much always did, eventually your defence collapses because the other side applies relentless pressure due to lack of their own need to defend. When you attack at an insane pace you keep the opposition off balance and for the most part attack being the best form of defence holds true. Defend too much and you're begging for trouble.

But longer term maybe he's crap at training, can't handle players egos, players get upset at not being played and he sucks at dealing with that, terrible judge of players when it comes to transfer market, etc. All of that is relatively unknown. The main thing he's done so far is come in and release the offensive players to play their actual game rather than put a leash on them and place relentless pressure/negativity on them by insisting they defend all game.

Early signs are he's doing great, longer term he could be great or could be terrible. Short term uplifts by fixing the major issues holding a team back isn't rare, long term a new manager who got such a uplift actually making a team better is rarer.

We tried Van Gaal (Champions league winner and finalist) and Mourinho (One of the most successful current managers in the world) and it hasn't worked. It is a risk giving him the job full time but in my opinion worth the risk. We are miles away from challenging city so next year is going to be about performance rather than winning the league. Maybe getting someone in to handle transfers and keep Solskjaer as the manager.

 

[BaZ87]

We tried Van Gaal (Champions league winner and finalist) and Mourinho (One of the most successful current managers in the world) and it hasn't worked. It is a risk giving him the job full time but in my opinion worth the risk. We are miles away from challenging city so next year is going to be about performance rather than winning the league. Maybe getting someone in to handle transfers and keep Solskjaer as the manager.

Surely it's best to give it a bit longer than 6 games before you start calling for him to get the job full-time? His only other experience of PL football was at Cardiff and you only have to look at the reception he got the other week to see how highly he's regarded there.

You've got a very talented squad that was under performing under Mourinho and you often get a new manager bounce, which was probably slightly exaggerated by your fixtures (prior to today at least). Surely at the very least you'd want to wait and see how things are going come March or April before handing him the job. Without wanting to upset the Mancs even more than I have, he doesn't strike you as somebody with the sort of charism that a Klopp or Pep have, that could keep this feel good feeling around the club all year round, even when results aren't always going your way, nor has he proven he's tactically capable at this level yet.

 

[Robbo]

Disagree on those saves. If he can kick them away then they clearly weren't very far away for him to reach. If you keep shooting nearly straight at a decent keeper you're not going to score many.

As for the overrated Alisson, he's massively out performed De Gea this season and pretty much every keeper in the league. De Gea's made 2.5 saves per goal conceded compared to 4.7 for Alisson. Of course that doesn't look at the difficulty of the shots they've faced/saves made - 64% of Alisson's saves have been within the 18 yard box with just under 11% in the 6 yard box compared to 55% and 6% for De Gea. You then have the statto's favourite xg stats where Alissons miles ahead too. I'm pretty sure Alisson was only 2nd to Oblak in Europe last season too. Not bad for an overrated keeper, especially when he's much better on the ball and has a far superior beard.

So you really think all of those saves were standard fare?!

I'll give you the beard.

I'm not saying he's bad, or anything like that. Clearly he's very good, but from what I have seen of him (admittedly not as much as you), he just looks like a good keeper in terms of saves, but with excellent distribution, he's made a few mistakes too but that was early on.

De Gea has had a rough time of it along with the rest of the squad this season, but he's still been playing at a high level.

Surely it's best to give it a bit longer than 6 games before you start calling for him to get the job full-time? His only other experience of PL football was at Cardiff and you only have to look at the reception he got the other week to see how highly he's regarded there.

You've got a very talented squad that was under performing under Mourinho and you often get a new manager bounce, which was probably slightly exaggerated by your fixtures (prior to today at least). Surely at the very least you'd want to wait and see how things are going come March or April before handing him the job. Without wanting to upset the Mancs even more than I have, he doesn't strike you as somebody with the sort of charism that a Klopp or Pep have, that could keep this feel good feeling around the club all year round, even when results aren't always going your way, nor has he proven he's tactically capable at this level yet.

I agree here, he's done fantastically well so far, but no decisions should be made just yet.

 

[BaZ87]

So you really think all of those saves were standard fare?!

I'll give you the beard.

I'm not saying he's bad, or anything like that. Clearly he's very good, but from what I have seen of him (admittedly not as much as you), he just looks like a good keeper in terms of saves, but with excellent distribution, he's made a few mistakes too but that was early on.

De Gea has had a rough time of it along with the rest of the squad this season, but he's still been playing at a high level.

It depends on how you define standard. For one of the top 10 keepers in the world, yes. That's what separates the best keepers from the Lloris's of this world. Just like Rashford's goal, had one of Kane's attempts went in today you wouldn't have called it an outright mistake by the keeper but you'd think that a goal keeper of his level should have saved it. What made De Gea's performance today better than the saves in isolation was that he had a lot to make but other than the Alderweireld save, which is just one you hope hits you, had any of Spurs' efforts went in then I'll be saying the exact same thing as I am regarding Rashford's goal - Lloris should have saved it.

As for Alisson. He's done everything De Gea done today but has done it constantly throughout the season. He's consistently making the saves you expect a top class keeper to make, plus few bonus ones for good measure. Even the couple of mistakes he's made haven't really caused me any real concern. The Leicester incident was a case of him taking liberties in the opening few weeks and was a blessing in disguise of sorts as it's something he's cut out of his game since and the Utd one was more of a freak thing than a technical error or lapse in concentration - he catches the cross and it's only as he falls to the ground that the ball hits his knee and pops out his hands. It was very much a "**** happens" moment.

He's undoubtedly been the best keeper in the league this season.

 

[omnomnom]

De Gea is the best goalie in the Premiership, no question.

There is because he simply isn't. He's been poor for the past 12 months.

There's a reason why we've conceded 10 this season...one of those is Alisson.

 

[Andybtsn]

I don't think many can argue De Gea's reflexes and shot stopping is the best in the league. However, you have to question his overall leadership at the back, is the defence that bad? The number of saves he's forced into making is pretty ridiculous, communication back there, is it up to scratch?

 

[nicktay2605]

Imo VVD is more important to that Liverpool defence than Alisson. Sure, he's a great keeper, but DDG is the better shot stopper and Ederson is better with his feet, so I'm not sure you can say Alisson is the best in the league. He plays behind the best back four, I don't personally think that makes him the best keeper.

 

[BaZ87]

Imo VVD is more important to that Liverpool defence than Alisson. Sure, he's a great keeper, but DDG is the better shot stopper and Ederson is better with his feet, so I'm not sure you can say Alisson is the best in the league. He plays behind the best back four, I don't personally think that makes him the best keeper.

That's some strange logic, even if you ignore the fact that Alisson's massively outperformed De Gea in the shot stopping stakes this season and every other keeper in the league (literally nobody comes close statistically speaking) - somebody can be overall the best, even if they're not the best at any one particular aspect. You're right about playing behind the best back 4 though but that doesn't change the fact that when he's called into action he's consistently performed better than any other keeper.

I couldn't care less who people think has been the best over x amount of seasons or who they may want looking towards the future but it's not even close who's been the best so far this season. And something I said in the summer when we signed him, when we look at how good a keeper is we seem fixated on just shot stopping - how many fewer saves does Alisson have to make over De Gea (for example) because we're able to play with a higher line thanks to having a keeper that will sweep up anything within 40 yards of goal and because we're keeping the ball better because of his distribution? Alisson is the absolute best goal keeper for how Liverpool want to play. The only comparable keeper to him is Ederson and he's a fair bit better than him.

 

[FrankJH]

That's the whole point you don't buy a £70m keeper just for one season, its for 5-10. Its also exaggerating how good he is because its such recent memories from the last 3 - 4 where you haven't had such a great keeper (and even for a very short period with a similar back four)

Allison hasn't even made it to the 6 month mark yet - come back in three or four years and then maybe he will be the best in the league.

As much as I hate him its what Jenas was saying last night - we are talking about the smallest nth of a degree difference between Lloris and DDG , yet time and again DDG gets in EXACTLY the right position to make those saves look easy (and like the comparison on MOTD, one of Kane's shots and the Rashford goal weren't that different, yet DDG made the save look easy). Imagine if all those shots were against Lloris, I bet he would have conceded quite a few more just from his choice of placement.

Admittedly Lloris made a fingertip save against Pogba which got tipped over the bar, but we are talking about very small margins here from something looking easy to full stretch or even just missing it.

 

[BaZ87]

Thanks for that Frank, I thought we only had Alisson on loan for a season. Now we've cleared up that he's been signed for the long-term can you explain why we can't comment on how well he's done to date?

 

[adam cool dude]

It was a bit like when VDS got the European record for consecutive clean sheets. Do not get me wrong VDS is easily top ten keepers in the world to have played the game but he got that record because he had Evra,Vidic,Rio and Neville in front of him. De Gea is a better keeper but his defence is no where at the level VDS had. Allison is in a similar situation but as can been seen due to Liverpools injury crisis. Cracks are starting to form.

 

[Steedie]

Agree Alisson is overrated, really don't see the fuss. He fits your typical Liverpool goalkeeper in the sense that he seems a bit dodgy at times but makes the odd good save. But I'd say VVD being an absolute monster in defence and being a wall in himself flatters Alisson a lot.

In my opinion, De Gea is still the best goalkeeper in the world and performances last night only back that up.

 

[BaZ87]

It was a bit like when VDS got the European record for consecutive clean sheets. Do not get me wrong VDS is easily top ten keepers in the world to have played the game but he got that record because he had Evra,Vidic,Rio and Neville in front of him. De Gea is a better keeper but his defence is no where at the level VDS had. Allison is in a similar situation but as can been seen due to Liverpools injury crisis. Cracks are starting to form.

It's not like that at all though. Our defensive record hasn't just been good, it's been incredible - only a relatively defensively minded Chelsea side has ever conceded fewer goals at this stage of a PL season before. Of course Liverpool's back 4 has contributed but Alisson has massively contributed too and the stats support this. Expected goals stats show that Liverpool should have conceded over 7 goals more than they have this season - in other words, despite how well our defence has performed, we've given up enough chances where we should have conceded at least 7 goals more than we have but there's a giant, bearded reason why we haven't. Alisson. In comparrison, Utd and De Gea have conceded 0.3 goals fewer than they should have based on the chances you've conceded.

If you want to argue about how good De Gea has been historically and argue that Alisson has to continue to perform like he has for another couple of years to be regarded as the best in the world, no problem but he has, without a shadow of a doubt been the best keeper in the league so far this season and by a country mile too.

 

[chroniclard]

Personally I still get worried when Alisson has the ball, perhaps its the trauma from years of Mignolet and Karius.

 

[adam cool dude]

It's not like that at all though. Our defensive record hasn't just been good, it's been incredible - only a relatively defensively minded Chelsea side has ever conceded fewer goals at this stage of a PL season before. Of course Liverpool's back 4 has contributed but Alisson has massively contributed too and the stats support this. Expected goals stats show that Liverpool should have conceded over 7 goals more than they have this season - in other words, despite how well our defence has performed, we've given up enough chances where we should have conceded at least 7 goals more than we have but there's a giant, bearded reason why we haven't. Alisson. In comparrison, Utd and De Gea have conceded 0.3 goals fewer than they should have based on the chances you've conceded.

If you want to argue about how good De Gea has been historically and argue that Alisson has to continue to perform like he has for another couple of years to be regarded as the best in the world, no problem but he has, without a shadow of a doubt been the best keeper in the league so far this season and by a country mile too.

So the fact you have conceded 4 goals in the past 3 due to defensive injuries/suspensions and playing a weaker back 4 compared to conceding 4 goals in 10 before that had nothing to do with Allison?

 

[chroniclard]

So the fact you have conceded 4 goals in the past 3 due to defensive injuries/suspensions and playing a weaker back 4 compared to conceding 4 goals in 10 before that had nothing to do with Allison?

Mignolet was in the net for 2 of those.

 

[BaZ87]

Personally I still get worried when Alisson has the ball, perhaps its the trauma from years of Mignolet and Karius.

I've passed all that within half a dozen games. There was the initial fun of him doing cruyff turns and chipping the ball over strikers heads, then the nervousness when he nearly got caught out a couple of times, the annoyance when he did get caught but since then he's stopped taking he **** and I've settled down.

So the fact you have conceded 4 goals in the past 3 due to defensive injuries and playing a weaker back 4 compared to conceding 4 goals in 10 before that had nothing to do with Allison?

This has genuinely confused the life out of me. Alisson didn't even play vs Wolves! And the 2 goals conceded vs City had little to nothing to do with defensive injuries - we restricted City to probably fewer chances than 99% of games they'll play this season, unfortunately for us they scored 2 with near perfect finishes.

As I said in my initial reply, of course having a great back 4 has contributed to our defensive record this season, as has the fact that we dominate games and face fewer attacks. Nobody is disputing that. But Alisson has also played a massive part too - as I've shown, even accounting for how well our back line has performed, we've conceded 7 goals fewer because of Alisson. In terms of chances conceded and expected goals against, the stattos suggest that both Liverpool and City should have conceded just over 17 goals each but because of Alisson we've only conceded 10 where as City and Ederson have conceded the full 17.

edit: just to add to the above, I've found De Gea's xg stats from last season. Utd conceded 12.76 fewer goals last season than they should have done based on the chances they conceded. Alisson's 7.46 over 22 games is pretty much identical to De Gea of last season. De Gea of this season is on course to beat xg by 0.58 goals.

What this shows is that De Gea hasn't played terribly (there are some keepers that have conceded 5+ goals more than they should have) but he's clearly not played anywhere near the level he had previously.

 

[Sui]

This season, I think saying Allison is better is fair, DDG has been sloppy compared to his previous seasons. Don't get me wrong, I think DDG is probably the best keeper in the world overall, but looking at it on a season-by-season basis, he isn't the best this season (so far).

You can still be the best in the world without winning an award one year.

 

[Purdy]

Nice can turn it off early

 

[McBain]

Such a simple yet lovely goal, great ball from Laporte and perfect from Sane.

Edit: red card for Boly, in todays game thats a red all day long, off the floor even though one footed. Never going to get away with that.