Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [14th - 19th October 2011]

[jakeke]

I just think the football world has caught up with Wenger/Arsenal. He was genuinely working miracles for many years, working with completely unproven potential for so long and somehow pulling it off, but since Man City took off it's gone mental and it's one step too far to feasibly pull off on the cheap (especially with Liverpool actually spending serious money now too). What Arsenal needed to do was spend some of the absolute fortune they've amassed over the last 5 years in the summer, they didn't, and predictably they've been left behind a bit. Why they didn't buy Mata will be a mystery until time ends. The summer was a giant balls up and the club are paying, although something odd is happening at the club as it's now obvious we have a **** tonne of money yet there's somebody at the club stopping the spending.

That said, despite 4 or 5 summers of utter failure in the transfer market and always going into seasons with cash in the bank and massive holes in the squad, 4th is probably still in reach somehow which probably says a lot about the rest too

I'd be here for 2 hours typing if I went through my gripes from the summer but as you say, not replacing Fabregas was completely bewildering, just weird as hell. As it is, the incompetence from inside the club (and coaching Sunday and Wednesday meaning I can't keep up with it all) has led to malaise for me, I can't really be bothered any more and I find myself subconsciously caring less.

 

[The Running Man]

Rooneys better in midfield anyway

 

[Tummy]

I think Arsenal could still be in with a chance of getting fourth spot says more about the League then it does Arsenal or Wenger.

 

[jakeke]

Exactly, unbelievably, shockingly bad start from Arsenal and at no point did I think 4th was unattainable, then again I don't work for a newspaper and make stupid conclusions!

 

[Tummy]

I don't always believe that throwing money at a problem should be the answer in regards to football. I half admire Wenger for spending little and doing very well (ignoring the massive wages) but I think that Sky and the spending power of Manchester City, Chelsea and to a lesser extent Liverpool and Manchester United have set an unreasonable level of expectation around.

It's funny, that for all the money Chelsea and City throw at the Premier League and European Cup, they'll not be anywhere near as big as Liverpool or United for a very very long time.

 

[jakeke]

Arsenal don't give enormous wages they just gambled on all the youth players and gave them all decent money (30-50k) so everybody on the squad was on a good amount but nobody was on crazy money. That backfired as 5 or 6 of them didn't really go on to be as good as hoped and it became difficult to shift them due to the decent wages (the story of Traore being on 30k~ at Arsenal and Juve coming in last year and offering him 4k a week ..)

Yeah, Arsenal have been overachieving for a while, probably due to how bloody good Fabregas and Wenger were, now things are going to get more realistic, but it seems a little pathetic to complain about being one of the top 4 or 5 sides in the country, I'm sure the other 80 wouldn't mind it. However, big mistakes have been made that were obviously avoidable, which is most Arsenal fans' gripes probs

 

[FrankJH]

I don't always believe that throwing money at a problem should be the answer in regards to football. I half admire Wenger for spending little and doing very well (ignoring the massive wages) but I think that Sky and the spending power of Manchester City, Chelsea and to a lesser extent Liverpool and Manchester United have set an unreasonable level of expectation around.

It's funny, that for all the money Chelsea and City throw at the Premier League and European Cup, they'll not be anywhere near as big as Liverpool or United for a very very long time.

I agree partly - but I also think they are attracting players more for thir history of the club etc than current players with the odd exception.

5-10 years ago they were still a prime selection (London, very recently successful and many current world stars) but surely they need to win soething major fast before it becomes more and more difficult to attract big name players (or even the next big player)

Im all for as many big clubs in the UK as possible, would really hate the EPL to become like La Liga with only two clubs ever realy competing

Completely agree about Chelsea / City - but it does depend how strong UEFA really are going to be about Fair Play etc, and the naming of City's ground is going to be an interesting test "case"

 

[BaZ87]

It was the corner where they were squabbling on the goal line, it got took, the ref stopped it, Evra went to the ref to complain and then Kuyt who wasn't near ran over protesting what he said wasn't true (seemingly). The Ref then spoke to Evra and Suarez, corner resumed, think it went out for a goal kick and then Evra got booked for continuing to complain I think when told to stop.

Can't find the video of the supposed incident anymore, which is a pain,

That's not entirely accurate. In case you're implying Evra was complaining to the ref about the alleged racist remarks, Marriner wrote in his match report that he was not made aware of any allegations until 20 minutes after the game. The ref called both Suarez and Evra over, Evra didn't go to the ref to complain. No idea what Kuyt may have said; also worth noting that it was Kuyt not Suarez that had a word with Evra when he was rolling around on the floor after the slightest of trips from Suarez moments earlier (maybe that's what Kuyt was saying). According to what the papers reported, Evra's yellow was recorded in the match report for 'continued bickering with Suarez', not for anything said to the ref.

 

[drunkenmaster]

It didn't backfire, from day one it was plain as day how Denilson, Song, Diaby weren't good enough, yet we after we'd seen how bad they were is when we let Gilberto/Flamini walk out.

We got hugely lucky with Fabregas, City's spending has smeg all to do with the timing of Wenger losing his touch, also Wenger didn't bring together a team of unknowns and massive risks and turn them great. Henry was a an upcoming goal scoring machine, right up till at Monaco Wenger turned him into a winger....... which is why he wasn't great in Italy, and when we bought him Wenger finally put him back upfront, his natural position where he'd played all his career till Wenger randomly put him on the wing.

Thats "worked" once, and only because Wenger stopped doing it, since then, Reyes, put on the wing, Wiltord, wing, Eduardo, wing, Vela, wing, Theo, wing, Arshavin(kinda) wing, Bendtner, wing.

Wenger's a one trick pony, the problem is, his biggest learning experience in his entire career, was correcting his mistake of putting the out and out striker, Henry, on the wing and pushing him back upfront. Yet essentially every single striker since then, we've screwed around with and when it doesn't work Wenger HASN'T pushed them back upfront.

If he hadn't inherited Adams, Keown, Dixon, Winterburn, Bould and Seaman, Arsenal wouldn't ever have won anything, any Arsenal fan with, errm, eyes can see that Wenger hasn't got the defence right in the past decade, replacing old greats with new not as good players and either refusing to get cover, or bringing in such horrifically bad quality cover that its a joke.

He refuses to learn, I don't think he's learned from a mistake in his time at Arsenal, there isn't a single thing he gets woefully and obviously wrong that he even attempts to avoid again, but plunges head first into it.

Even his latest comments today, publically stating half the players wanted to leave..... who does that help, fan morale, not a chance, player morale, even less so. He had the cheek to string together, players wanting to leave over uncertainty, spending the entire summer concluding a deal everyone on earth knew was coming, and rushing out at the last minute to buy mostly entirely wrong players for the team was a "good" summer.

Aren't we still closer to the bottom than 4th place? With our wins against, Swansea, Bolton and Sunderland, all at home, 3 massive contenders for relegation this season, two of them with the worst form in the league and Swansea, who we were gifted the win against. Points after playing average to very good teams, horrific, a run of 3 games against 3 of the worst teams in the league, better, how are we going to be playing half decent teams again?

 

[Tom84]

Why have you started randomly posting stuff like that? Are you really that bored?

I wonder if he realises he was the first one to mention Rooney? Not any United fan, him

 

[Tom84]

also worth noting that it was Kuyt not Suarez that had a word with Evra when he was rolling around on the floor after the slightest of trips from Suarez moments earlier (maybe that's what Kuyt was saying).

Yeah annoying when players throw themselves to the floor after the slightest of touches isn't it

 

[BaZ87]

Yeah annoying when players throw themselves to the floor after the slightest of touches isn't it

Not really as if you don't go to ground when being fouled, more often than not the ref won't give the free-kick for the foul. It is annoying when a player rolls around on the floor feigning injury when there's clearly nothing wrong with them though.

And yes, Liverpool players have done that too, as I know point scoring is more important to you than having an actual opinion on the matter

 

[Alpherah]

Yeah annoying when players throw themselves to the floor after the slightest of touches isn't it

After watching Ronaldo for all those years you should be mellow to it by now.

 

[Tummy]

Arsenal don't give enormous wages they just gambled on all the youth players and gave them all decent money (30-50k) so everybody on the squad was on a good amount but nobody was on crazy money. That backfired as 5 or 6 of them didn't really go on to be as good as hoped and it became difficult to shift them due to the decent wages (the story of Traore being on 30k~ at Arsenal and Juve coming in last year and offering him 4k a week ..)

Yeah, Arsenal have been overachieving for a while, probably due to how bloody good Fabregas and Wenger were, now things are going to get more realistic, but it seems a little pathetic to complain about being one of the top 4 or 5 sides in the country, I'm sure the other 80 wouldn't mind it. However, big mistakes have been made that were obviously avoidable, which is most Arsenal fans' gripes probs

That was what I was hinting at Arsenal are paying / were paying silly money for youngsters. You quote Traore being on ~30k a year, when you think that it's reported that Phil Jones is on about ~40k a year with Smalling / Evans on about ~20k / ~30k respectively it puts things in to perspective a bit.

I think it was down to more then just Cesc and Wenger. I'd put his initial success down to the back four he inherited, the goal keeper and a very good midfield he got together. Players like Henry were also massive in that, and BerggyK up top.

Since then he's pretty much failed to replace them, don't get me wrong, he's bought in some pretty amazing players too, but he's failed to get them to perform to their potential, other then maybe Cesc, who I still have fond memories of for his distraction of Juventus when he was only just out of nappies.

I agree partly - but I also think they are attracting players more for thir history of the club etc than current players with the odd exception.

5-10 years ago they were still a prime selection (London, very recently successful and many current world stars) but surely they need to win soething major fast before it becomes more and more difficult to attract big name players (or even the next big player)

Im all for as many big clubs in the UK as possible, would really hate the EPL to become like La Liga with only two clubs ever realy competing

Completely agree about Chelsea / City - but it does depend how strong UEFA really are going to be about Fair Play etc, and the naming of City's ground is going to be an interesting test "case"

I think that's fair, of all the London clubs, I'd want to play for Arsenal, good club, well ran, good support, amazing ground, great youth set up, good football ethos. I'd certainly pick them (personally) over Chelsea, but then I'd also pick Spurs over Chelsea.

Arsenal are in server danger (imho) of becoming a stepping stone to a bigger club, Manchester United, Liverpool (who are on the up again, don't care how anti Liverpool you are) City (but to a lesser extent) and then of course the Italian and Spanish sides.

Chelsea are a relatively successful club, don't get me wrong, but League Cups, F.A. Cups and Premier League medals only get you so far (or for me certainly), you hear interviews with players and they want World Cups and European Cups, they want big money so they head to Chelsea and settle for domestic success.

It didn't backfire, from day one it was plain as day how Denilson, Song, Diaby weren't good enough, yet we after we'd seen how bad they were is when we let Gilberto/Flamini walk out.

We got hugely lucky with Fabregas, City's spending has smeg all to do with the timing of Wenger losing his touch, also Wenger didn't bring together a team of unknowns and massive risks and turn them great. Henry was a an upcoming goal scoring machine, right up till at Monaco Wenger turned him into a winger....... which is why he wasn't great in Italy, and when we bought him Wenger finally put him back upfront, his natural position where he'd played all his career till Wenger randomly put him on the wing.

Thats "worked" once, and only because Wenger stopped doing it, since then, Reyes, put on the wing, Wiltord, wing, Eduardo, wing, Vela, wing, Theo, wing, Arshavin(kinda) wing, Bendtner, wing.

Wenger's a one trick pony, the problem is, his biggest learning experience in his entire career, was correcting his mistake of putting the out and out striker, Henry, on the wing and pushing him back upfront. Yet essentially every single striker since then, we've screwed around with and when it doesn't work Wenger HASN'T pushed them back upfront.

If he hadn't inherited Adams, Keown, Dixon, Winterburn, Bould and Seaman, Arsenal wouldn't ever have won anything, any Arsenal fan with, errm, eyes can see that Wenger hasn't got the defence right in the past decade, replacing old greats with new not as good players and either refusing to get cover, or bringing in such horrifically bad quality cover that its a joke.

He refuses to learn, I don't think he's learned from a mistake in his time at Arsenal, there isn't a single thing he gets woefully and obviously wrong that he even attempts to avoid again, but plunges head first into it.

Even his latest comments today, publically stating half the players wanted to leave..... who does that help, fan morale, not a chance, player morale, even less so. He had the cheek to string together, players wanting to leave over uncertainty, spending the entire summer concluding a deal everyone on earth knew was coming, and rushing out at the last minute to buy mostly entirely wrong players for the team was a "good" summer.

Aren't we still closer to the bottom than 4th place? With our wins against, Swansea, Bolton and Sunderland, all at home, 3 massive contenders for relegation this season, two of them with the worst form in the league and Swansea, who we were gifted the win against. Points after playing average to very good teams, horrific, a run of 3 games against 3 of the worst teams in the league, better, how are we going to be playing half decent teams again?

I partly agree; see points above in regards in inheriting a good squad and doing well with them.

Also; I think the lower standard of football teams in the Premiership is starting to show, there is now less of a gap between the "chasing pack" and the rest of the dross in the League. There is still quite a big gap between the chasing pack and the top teams (Manchester United, Chelsea, Liverpool and Manchester City) I'd now put Arsenal in the chasing pack along with Spurs. (Don't get me started on Spurs, massively underachieved under 'Arry and his ties with Sky / the English Media is the only reason he doesn't get as much **** as other managers)

 

[Tummy]

Yeah annoying when players throw themselves to the floor after the slightest of touches isn't it

All clubs have players that dive and simulate and exaggerate contact.

Don't try and take any moral high ground over this

There are a few stand out players, but every club does it. It's part and parcel of the ugly side of football.

 

[Yas786]

Lovely sig. Inspiring.

On another note, Vermaelen has signed a new contract with Arsenal...glad hes staying although i just wish he would stay fit rather than get injured. Now just RVP to put pen to paper and give us a few more years of his awesomeness

 

[jakeke]

I wonder if he realises he was the first one to mention Rooney? Not any United fan, him

My bad, how rude of me! Who do you think is the best striker in the league? Hernandez, Rooney, Welbeck or Berbatov? Haven't forgotten anybody have I?

Edit - forgot Owen! D'oh!

 

[Tummy]

I cant read the crap Tom84 comes up with, the joys of having an ignore list


On another note, Vermaelen has signed a new contract with Arsenal...glad hes staying although i just wish he would stay fit rather than get injured. Now just RVP to put pen to paper and give us a few more years of his awesomeness

Just means you can sell Vermaelen for more

 

[jakeke]

That was what I was hinting at Arsenal are paying / were paying silly money for youngsters. You quote Traore being on ~30k a year, when you think that it's reported that Phil Jones is on about ~40k a year with Smalling / Evans on about ~20k / ~30k respectively it puts things in to perspective a bit.

I think it was down to more then just Cesc and Wenger. I'd put his initial success down to the back four he inherited, the goal keeper and a very good midfield he got together. Players like Henry were also massive in that, and BerggyK up top.

Since then he's pretty much failed to replace them, don't get me wrong, he's bought in some pretty amazing players too, but he's failed to get them to perform to their potential, other then maybe Cesc, who I still have fond memories of for his distraction of Juventus when he was only just out of nappies.

tbf you look at Rooney on £200k and Berbatov on £100k who doesn't even make match squads and it puts it in perspective a bit Also massively pedantic and pointless but iirc Smalling signed a new contract a few months ago didn't he? So I'd be betting he's on well over £20k and Jones was £16m so I'd be very surprised if he wasn't on very decent money.

But yeah, Arsenal gambled on a youth policy, no transfer fees but trusted the talent with early contracts and unfortunately some of the judgement was off.

I was talking about over achieving in the last 5 years (as stupid as it sounds since Arsenal didn't win anything) staying with the league leaders every other year, getting a long way in Europe etc. with a very dodgy squad every year. Wenger did get high levels out of players who hadn't even played competitive football before which was where my over achieving opinion comes from.

tbf Wenger did spend some quite big money to put the invincibles together

 

[Tummy]

tbf you look at Rooney on £200k and Berbatov on £100k who doesn't even make match squads and it puts it in perspective a bit Also massively pedantic and pointless but iirc Smalling signed a new contract a few months ago didn't he? So I'd be betting he's on well over £20k and Jones was £16m so I'd be very surprised if he wasn't on very decent money.

But yeah, Arsenal gambled on a youth policy, no transfer fees but trusted the talent with early contracts and unfortunately some of the judgement was off.

I was talking about over achieving in the last 5 years (as stupid as it sounds since Arsenal didn't win anything) staying with the league leaders every other year, getting a long way in Europe etc. with a very dodgy squad every year. Wenger did get high levels out of players who hadn't even played competitive football before which was where my over achieving opinion comes from.

tbf Wenger did spend some quite big money to put the invincibles together

iirc Jones is only on ~40k a year

The point I was making was about GOOD youth players on good wages V Poor youth players on good wages

I do take the point that Berbatov is being paid a lot to bench warm, which baffles me, joint top scorer in the League last season and this what it gets him?

Arsenal almost did over achieve, but I think it's also due to a lack of a good challenge. Spurs didn't get themselves in to any sort of good form until quite recently and they've under achieved too.