Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [25th - 27th August 2017]

Ok, Spurs have finished above Arsenal once with a lesser budget. How many times have Arsenal finished above Utd, City or Chelsea with a smaller budget?

As I said, the end result has been Arsenal finishing more or less where they should based on what's been spent. There have been cases of other clubs over achieving and others under achieving but again, Arsenal have finished where they should.

I'm not saying Wenger should stay, in fact I've said regularly that his time is up but the criticism that Arsenal have consistently under achieved is simply not true.
 
Ok, Spurs have finished above Arsenal once with a lesser budget. How many times have Arsenal finished above Utd, City or Chelsea with a smaller budget?

:D

I understand DM's frustration, but with that one line you just beat his wall of text.

DM needs to up his game, he does not even bother to post in the GPU section anymore :p
 
Unfortunately we have two more seasons of this, awful football, a system which clearly doesn't work, playing Bellerin, Monreal, Kolasinac and others out of position, pandering to Chamberlain who isn't good enough by giving him starts in a position which he doesn't even want to play in anyway, letting two of our best players somehow get into the last year of their contracts, not starting our record signing forward because he apparently isn't ready... It's easy to see why a lot of Arsenal fans are fed up with the way the club is ran and managed.

Sure Kroenke couldn't give less of a **** about the sport and competition as long as he gets a return on his investment, but Arsene is at fault here too and has been for a number of years. He's done very well for us, you don't win that many cups by being a crap manager, he kept us in the Champions League during the stadium years, he was a revelation for the league and country when he first came over here but he really shouldn't have signed a new 2 year contract. He hasn't been at the races for the past 4 or 5 years at least.

If Ozil and Sanchez won't sign a new deal then we should just get rid, invest the money in youth and a few proven Premier League players and start building for the future. Anything is better than persisting with this rubbish.
 
Ok, Spurs have finished above Arsenal once with a lesser budget. How many times have Arsenal finished above Utd, City or Chelsea with a smaller budget?

As I said, the end result has been Arsenal finishing more or less where they should based on what's been spent. There have been cases of other clubs over achieving and others under achieving but again, Arsenal have finished where they should.

I'm not saying Wenger should stay, in fact I've said regularly that his time is up but the criticism that Arsenal have consistently under achieved is simply not true.

Again, there is no should. Look at City, Utd, Chelsea, does their spending cause them to finish 'where they should'? No, they all change quite often who spends most, but there have been times Utd spend quite a lot less than Chelsea but beat them, City spend more than both but lose to them, Utd spend a bit less but end up 7th.

There is literally no such thing as people finish in the league positions according to their spending, none. What you can say is, having been the 4th biggest spender AND having a monumental gap in spending to Spurs, finishing 4th ahead of those behind them is no impressive feat at all. Like I said, being in that spending ball park means you should somewhat consistently COMPETE. Some years you get two injuries to key players and miss out on the league, other seasons you have a good run of less injuries and do much better. You can see those seasons in City, Chelsea and Utd. But where are the good seasons with Arsenal. Leicester, Spurs, Liverpool have all had seasons they have won or been within a pretty good distance very close to the end. Yes Spurs went mental at the end of the season two years ago, but ultimately they were actually in the fight with Leicester much later than arsenal were.

Arsenal spend enough that they should not just compete some years, but genuinely compete with only a few bad years. Spurs/Leicester/others on less money can compete once in a while but their spending would mean I don't expect them to do it consistently.

It's not about actually winning, every single year if we're 'in' the fight by Feb, we bottle it completely, every single year. Nothing changed in a decade, if we ditched Wenger, got a better manager who ditched half our players and started spending the same actual money on actually top players we would compete, we wouldn't necessarily have won a single extra title, though I think we would have. We would have been in the fight at least a few times in the past 10 years, we wouldn't have gone out in the first knock out stage in the CL for what is it 6 consecutive years now and we wouldn't have gone out by putting on a league two level performance in one of the legs of each of those ties.

It's not about achieving 4th more than it's about how we achieve it.

Again, there is no spend 3rd finishing 3rd is the aim, the target or acceptable, it's not where you should finish. No sport really works like that, Nadal, or Real, or the Ravens, or the Wizards, or whoever, everyone has good and bad years, spending the most doesn't in any sport mean you win. What most sports find is those who spend within the same rough brackets tend to compete with other people in those brackets. In f1 the mid budget teams at say 100-140mil a year simply do not compete with the 300+mil a year budget teams 99% of the time, and yet Williams(120mil or so) did out do several big budget teams for 1 year when the others messed up, yet a big budget team still won that year and the next year the big budget teams went ahead of Williams again.

When literally every other big budget team screwed up.... Leicester won rather than us. That says everything, the mentality is wrong, the squad is wrong. We're currently spending 200mil on wages on a team with less quality than Spurs who spend ~110mil on wages... that is fundamentally the reason we don't compete consistently and fundamentally the reason Spurs played a lot better than us in the past two seasons.

But the only reason we have that squad, is Wenger. Poch, Mourinho, none of them would accept the displays many of our players put out, they'd be gone and better replacements brought in.
 
Again, there is no should. Look at City, Utd, Chelsea, does their spending cause them to finish 'where they should'? No, they all change quite often who spends most, but there have been times Utd spend quite a lot less than Chelsea but beat them, City spend more than both but lose to them, Utd spend a bit less but end up 7th.

There is literally no such thing as people finish in the league positions according to their spending, none. What you can say is, having been the 4th biggest spender AND having a monumental gap in spending to Spurs, finishing 4th ahead of those behind them is no impressive feat at all. Like I said, being in that spending ball park means you should somewhat consistently COMPETE. Some years you get two injuries to key players and miss out on the league, other seasons you have a good run of less injuries and do much better. You can see those seasons in City, Chelsea and Utd. But where are the good seasons with Arsenal. Leicester, Spurs, Liverpool have all had seasons they have won or been within a pretty good distance very close to the end. Yes Spurs went mental at the end of the season two years ago, but ultimately they were actually in the fight with Leicester much later than arsenal were.

Arsenal spend enough that they should not just compete some years, but genuinely compete with only a few bad years. Spurs/Leicester/others on less money can compete once in a while but their spending would mean I don't expect them to do it consistently.

It's not about actually winning, every single year if we're 'in' the fight by Feb, we bottle it completely, every single year. Nothing changed in a decade, if we ditched Wenger, got a better manager who ditched half our players and started spending the same actual money on actually top players we would compete, we wouldn't necessarily have won a single extra title, though I think we would have. We would have been in the fight at least a few times in the past 10 years, we wouldn't have gone out in the first knock out stage in the CL for what is it 6 consecutive years now and we wouldn't have gone out by putting on a league two level performance in one of the legs of each of those ties.

It's not about achieving 4th more than it's about how we achieve it.

Again, there is no spend 3rd finishing 3rd is the aim, the target or acceptable, it's not where you should finish. No sport really works like that, Nadal, or Real, or the Ravens, or the Wizards, or whoever, everyone has good and bad years, spending the most doesn't in any sport mean you win. What most sports find is those who spend within the same rough brackets tend to compete with other people in those brackets. In f1 the mid budget teams at say 100-140mil a year simply do not compete with the 300+mil a year budget teams 99% of the time, and yet Williams(120mil or so) did out do several big budget teams for 1 year when the others messed up, yet a big budget team still won that year and the next year the big budget teams went ahead of Williams again.

When literally every other big budget team screwed up.... Leicester won rather than us. That says everything, the mentality is wrong, the squad is wrong. We're currently spending 200mil on wages on a team with less quality than Spurs who spend ~110mil on wages... that is fundamentally the reason we don't compete consistently and fundamentally the reason Spurs played a lot better than us in the past two seasons.

But the only reason we have that squad, is Wenger. Poch, Mourinho, none of them would accept the displays many of our players put out, they'd be gone and better replacements brought in.

I didn't read all the post. But since Abramovich and the Shiekhs, where where Chelsea and City? How many times have they won the league since the money started to flow? So yes, there is most definitely a direct correlation between money spent and trophies won when you look at it over the years.

Same goes for PSG and Monico. As soon as the money starts flowing they win the league and start becoming serious challengers to the Champions League.

It's not consistent. Nothing is in football as there is an element of luck, but like any good poker player over the long term they will make money. (They will win games as they have the financial capital to keep buying the best players to cope)

But I agree with your other points.

Wenger and the attitude is the problem. The lies, the arrogance, the recruitment policy, the fact that constantly he refuses to pay the little bit extra to get deals over the lines.....

And now this is going on a decade too long.
 
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I didn't read all the post. But since Abramovich and the Shiekhs, where where Chelsea and City? How many times have they won the league since the money started to flow? So yes, there is most definitely a direct correlation between money spent and trophies won when you look at it over the years.

If you'd bothered reading, I didn't say there wasn't a correlation between spending and success. But most importantly City and CHelsea spending put them in the same spending bracket that made them consistently COMPETE, but they didn't win every year and they didn't specifically always or even consistently come in the position that their spending dictated. Utd were spending considerably less on transfers and wages than Chelsea yet won the title three years in a row after Chelsea won it twice in a row, is that spending dictating exact position? City the same, City were outspending everyone for a while but they weren't consistently winning.

Leicester/Dortmund/Atletico are great examples. Spending within the 'big' bracket means you should compete in 9/10 years, but it doesn't mean if you spend the most you finish 1st, 2nd highest spending finishes 2nd, 3rd highest spender finishes third... none of that is true so why is 4th highest spender finishes fourth finishing where they should.

They maybe should finish 4th on average over a decade, but that should include 2 6th place finishes, 1st, a 2nd, etc. Leicester are a very low end spender, yet competed for and won the title, then the next season finished what 11 places lower, that is expected. Big money means drastically higher chance to finish higher, but it doesn't directly mean that if you're the 4th highest spender you shouldn't win or that the highest spend should win every year. Should we compete as often as Chelsea/City with their spending, nope, should we not compete at all, absolutely not, and again, explain the Leicester season, both in how Spurs and Leicester finished ahead of so many top spenders and how on earth did Arsenal not win when the bigger spenders messed up so spectacularly?
 
Again, there is no should. Look at City, Utd, Chelsea, does their spending cause them to finish 'where they should'? No, they all change quite often who spends most, but there have been times Utd spend quite a lot less than Chelsea but beat them, City spend more than both but lose to them, Utd spend a bit less but end up 7th.....

DM when you look at teams budgets you don't just look at what they spend on transfer fees in 1 year. It's the complete package, the total cost of their squad, the amount they're spending on wages and of course their net spend year on year.

By budgets I'm not simply talking about transfer fees spent that 1 year. There is of course the wage bill and you can't ignore the total cost of teams' squads too. City might not spend a penny next summer and have a negative net spend but they're still going to have a £400m+ squad available to them.

Wenger has had less resources to available to him (cost of his squad, money to spend to improve his squad and wage bill) than at least 3 other sides over the last 10 years or so. Obviously you want him to do more with what he has available but I'm not sure how you can expect him to do so.
 
Wenger's lineup on Sunday was mental. Liverpool's front 3 are potent. Holding and Monreal in a back 3 is asking for trouble. Ox is a winger, not a wingback (or a centre mid as he seems to think he can be). Ramsey and Xhaka in DM is just not strong. Ramsey likes to roam and Xhaka is too slow in a two man midfield. However, what Ramsey and Ox did was literally awful. I really don't know why Giroud doesn't get a look in; always causes problems. There's massive issues with Arsenal, but they're always the same issues. Hope little Santi recovers from his injury soon!
 
When you consider that Arsenal beat Leicester home and away the season Leicester won the league they really should have won it themselves.

We should have won the title back in 2007/2008 when we drewto brum in the league and Gallas threw an almighty strop.

But losing the title to Leicester was unforgivable in my eyes and probably what made me become disillusioned with Arsenal.
Wenger's lineup on Sunday was mental. Liverpool's front 3 are potent. Holding and Monreal in a back 3 is asking for trouble. Ox is a winger, not a wingback (or a centre mid as he seems to think he can be). Ramsey and Xhaka in DM is just not strong. Ramsey likes to roam and Xhaka is too slow in a two man midfield. However, what Ramsey and Ox did was literally awful. I really don't know why Giroud doesn't get a look in; always causes problems. There's massive issues with Arsenal, but they're always the same issues. Hope little Santi recovers from his injury soon!

Problem with Santi is that he is getting on a bit now, more prone to injuries as well. So I don't think even he could change the shower of **** that we have displayed in the first 3 games.
 
We should have won the title back in 2007/2008 when we drewto brum in the league and Gallas threw an almighty strop.

But losing the title to Leicester was unforgivable in my eyes and probably what made me become disillusioned with Arsenal.


Problem with Santi is that he is getting on a bit now, more prone to injuries as well. So I don't think even he could change the shower of **** that we have displayed in the first 3 games.

I agree, he's probably had it. Still loved him though haha!
 
There is literally no such thing as people finish in the league positions according to their spending, none.

No?

Do you not notice a trend?

http://www.transferleague.co.uk/pre...ague-tables/premier-league-table-2003-to-date
http://www.totalsportek.com/money/english-premier-league-wage-bills-club-by-club/

Check out the net spend of the 3 clubs that have consistently won the PL, quite a difference, a much higher probability of finding championship winning capable players
I could get up more figures for the wage spending, but it'll just be the same.

You're criticism of Wenger is well over exaggerated, it's just a fact.
 
DM when you look at teams budgets you don't just look at what they spend on transfer fees in 1 year. It's the complete package, the total cost of their squad, the amount they're spending on wages and of course their net spend year on year.

By budgets I'm not simply talking about transfer fees spent that 1 year. There is of course the wage bill and you can't ignore the total cost of teams' squads too. City might not spend a penny next summer and have a negative net spend but they're still going to have a £400m+ squad available to them.

Wenger has had less resources to available to him (cost of his squad, money to spend to improve his squad and wage bill) than at least 3 other sides over the last 10 years or so. Obviously you want him to do more with what he has available but I'm not sure how you can expect him to do so.

You seem to have missed the point as well, that means that on average Arsenal shouldn't be as competitive as often, it doesn't mean they can't win the league nor compete in some years.

Wage bill wise, Arsenal have been pretty damn close to UTd till very recently and that is more about buying more players more recently having 'newer' wages.

arsenal have huge resources, on top of that people like to completely forget that Wenger has a monumental advantage over every other manager in the league, and actually europe, longevity. If Guardiola bought a kid who thought would be the next big thing for 4mil.... that would now be potentially a 50mil player for Bayern... not City. If Wenger did the same that player would still be at Arsenal. Wenger doesn't have to spend as much because he at no stage in the past decade has had to replace a squad in the space of 3 years, or panic buy(he has, but he's had the resources, time and backing in place to prevent it). Wenger turned down the chance to buy Mbappe a year ago because the agents wanted 8million. No other manager has had the ability to plan for the future, to buy cheaper, to shape players from younger and cheaper. The problem is Wenger is buying absolute stinkers, Ox and Walcott for pretty damn big money at 16 before they'd done anything and most importantly both players look no better than the day they signed, they aren't more complete players, they don't play any differently.

Guardiola literally stated that they spent big this summer because the club hadn't planned for the future and had no fullbacks, but had he been around for 10 years he would have been training and buying younger cheaper players and making the players they have better.

Old Wenger, up to 2005, improved almost every player in the team, we bought a 5mil player and they were sold at 30mil, when was the last time we truly did this, when was the last time market value didn't just increase the player cost. Poch has improved the value of the squad he had several times over by training the players he had to be better players. There is a hell of a lot of value to be had from both time, wise spending and most importantly, excellent coaching. I can't remember the last player Arsenal had who actually improved massively after Arsenal bought them, yet there is literally a dozen or more from just the past two years at Spurs. Walker and Rose were fairly deemed to be awful full backs, two years under Poch and Walker goes for 50mil.

City, Chelsea and Utd could have spent 1/3rd of what they have done, jesus the players Chelsea have bought since 03/04 and simply thrown away barely being used, for half the value because they wanted them off the books, it's laughable. Wenger again because of longevity hasn't been buying 40mil midfielders to throw them away 1-2 years later, hasn't spent 20mil for a bench warmer who plays 3 games before being shoved out the door at a 15mil loss.

Up until a couple of years ago Utd were only spending 10-15mil more on wages than Arsenal and up until Fergie left, they weren't spending crazily on transfers either despite having success. Notice how much value Fergie got by being a long term manager. The difference between Fergi and Wenger post 2004, is Fergie kept buying players, improving them and having squads that improved, a winning mentality and not bottling every single season when there was a bit of pressure on.

Utd have been spending considerably more, considerably quicker.... and doing much worse than under Fergie, does that fit with your "money is everything" mantra, UTd spent less on transfers and wages than Chelsea and City by some massive margin.... but kept winning more titles than both.

Again I've not said they should even win a single title, but they absolutely, 100% certainly should have been more competitive and in more actual title fights. We led the league 2 seasons ago as City, Chelsea, Utd, all screwed up..... what did I say... we'll still bottle it because that is what this squad does every single year without fail. That is what we did. Also again Spurs may have only finished ahead of them for one season officially, but 2 years ago Spurs were in the title fight, well, lets see.

https://www.premierleague.com/tables?co=1&se=42&mw=1-20&ha=-1

match week 20, Arsenal 42 points, Leicester 40, City 39, Spurs 36.
Match week 30, Leic 63, Spurs 58, Arsenal 52, from 2 point lead to 11 points behind in 10 games, pitiful.
Week 34, Spurs still only 5 points back, Arsenal 10 points back with only 12 points to play for.
Week 35, Spurs 7 points back, Arsenal 12, 9 points to play for, Arsenal out of the title race despite how poor City, Chelsea and Utd had been.

Arsenal had the lead and despite a manager with ~20 years at Arsenal, huge experience, a much higher wage bill, higher transfer spending... we bottled it from Jan through to early May. Spurs fought back from 6 points down at week 20 to losing out on the title with a draw to a top team(Chelsea) before after the league was over, performing extremely poorly in 2 games that meant absolutely nothing at all. But a young side without much experience in their first title fight... being crap after the fight is over is significantly better than bottling it while in the lead without any excuses at all.
 
You seem to have missed the point as well, that means that on average Arsenal shouldn't be as competitive as often, it doesn't mean they can't win the league nor compete in some years.

I didn't say that they can't compete, I'm saying that there shouldn't be an expectation that Arsenal should finish higher than where they rank in the spending side of things. Obviously the aim is to compete and win but ultimately you can't say he's underachieved when there's been 3 or 4 more clubs with greater resources available to him over the past 10 years.
 
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