Greenlizard0 Weekend Football Thread ** spoilers ** [30th Dec 2011 - 4th Jan 2012]

drunkenmaster said:
Seems to be being used to call him a hypocrit, though I fail to see where. Firstly, he wasn't saying it to insult anyone, just as a word, second, he didn't use it on the pitch, thirdly, somehow comes across as further bitter from a sun writer who is obviously a Liverpool fan :p
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If he writes for that rag, then he's no Liverpool fan :p
 
Bigpig said:
Think there is more to Carr's job than just spotting Talent. I see him spending a lot of time in others countries like France, Holland making contacts and agents, finding who is available then watching them very closely to see if they are suitable or not. I know he was the main driving force to try and get Tiote signed when no other club was interested. It's said he watched Cabaye more than 15times. He got a tip off about the buyout clause in his contact.

I believe he is trying to push Newcastle into buying Jan Vertonghen. He's pretty much a household name in Holland.

Here's a quote from Carr
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Yes, the issue I have is, well, you know what you said is the very definition of what scouts do, this isn't "above and beyond" the call of a normal scout, that is exactly what scouts are expected to do, nothing more or less. He is PAID to watch games in other leagues, while other people don't have time to watch every game played in every league, that is the very reasoning behind having professional scouts.

As I said, he didn't go and pluck these players from complete obscurity or judge their future ability or potential based on how they were at 16, or 14(more guesswork than science but still). He went to other countries, as paid, and came back and told the club who the best players were to buy....... that is exactly what you expect, nothing less, nothing more, but somehow this seems to be hailed as amazing?

Most teams interested in a player will have seen them play 15 times, for both players they do eventually buy and ones they decide against in the end.
 
Maybe he just better at his job than the rest :S
Better contacts, more likeable and better backing.

Newcastle does have a good youth system in place as well as a very good scouting network now. Am sure we see Benefits in a few years time.
 
Bigpig said:
Newcastle does have a good youth system in place as well as a very good scouting network now. Am sure we see Benefits in a few years time.
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Our youth system is **** without looking at the lack of talent coming through (the Bambi brothers don't count) I had a cousin who was there when he was younger. He left it was such a shambles and went to Boro, was then picked up by ManU so he clearly had the talent.

Unfortunately he had a bad knee injury and now works in a car factory but ho hum :p

Scouting network is really impressive though!
 
No1newts said:
Our youth system is **** without looking at the lack of talent coming through (the Bambi brothers don't count) I had a cousin who was there when he was younger. He left it was such a shambles and went to Boro, was then picked up by ManU so he clearly had the talent.

Unfortunately he had a bad knee injury and now works in a car factory but ho hum :p

Scouting network is really impressive though!
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Steven taylor came though I think Andy Carroll was took in after manu let him go. Changed him from a cb to striker. That alone makes it good. Rember the youth teams doing extremely well when glen roader was In charge of academy.
 
Bigpig said:
Steven taylor came though I think Andy Carroll was took in after manu let him go. Changed him from a cb to striker. That alone makes it good. Rember the youth teams doing extremely well when glen roader was In charge of academy.
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You what? :confused:
 
During his formative years playing for local clubs like Low Fell Juniors and Monkton Juniors, Carroll briefly flirted with Manchester United's centre of excellence in Durham. Strict FA rules now mean that a club like United would not be able to poach a player from the North East, but it was different back then.

Former Low Fell Juniors manager Brian Waites recalls: 'A lot of people don't know that Andy was at the Manchester United school of excellence when he was younger. He went there once a week but Man United closed down their Durham operation. There is a myth that he played in defence for us but he never did.'
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Hardly constitutes us letting him go does it
 
drunkenmaster said:
Yes, the issue I have is, well, you know what you said is the very definition of what scouts do, this isn't "above and beyond" the call of a normal scout, that is exactly what scouts are expected to do, nothing more or less. He is PAID to watch games in other leagues, while other people don't have time to watch every game played in every league, that is the very reasoning behind having professional scouts.

As I said, he didn't go and pluck these players from complete obscurity or judge their future ability or potential based on how they were at 16, or 14(more guesswork than science but still). He went to other countries, as paid, and came back and told the club who the best players were to buy....... that is exactly what you expect, nothing less, nothing more, but somehow this seems to be hailed as amazing?

Most teams interested in a player will have seen them play 15 times, for both players they do eventually buy and ones they decide against in the end.
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the key for Carr is his ability to spot players whose quality will survive in the premier league. Yes he is picking up known players but they are slotting in easily. How many foreign stars come here only to flop spectacularly
 
Snax said:
the key for Carr is his ability to spot players whose quality will survive in the premier league. Yes he is picking up known players but they are slotting in easily. How many foreign stars come here only to flop spectacularly
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Not many? For every player that has flopped, a dozen haven't. Likewise too many players are just over rated and seen as flops, is Bebe a flop because he can't adapt, or was just never very good. Veron is considered a flop, so was Forlan, who knows why basically, they've both played essentially all over the world effectively.

Some clubs just buy bad players, because they are retarded, honestly how can anyone have actually gone out and bought in Heskey on a likely fairly high wage, when he is utterly useless, whats more is, why have several clubs done it since he went crap, and continue to give him games despite being awful.

Newcastle got Smith, long after he simply couldn't cut it in the league any more, why, god knows, 2 or 3 managers gave him game time and he, sucked balls. Pardew has him has had injuries and still won't play him, well done.

Some managers just buy crap players, and continue to play crap players...... and simply can't be explained. More foreign flops are just crap, not bad in this particular league.
 
No1newts said:
Our youth system is **** without looking at the lack of talent coming through (the Bambi brothers don't count) I had a cousin who was there when he was younger. He left it was such a shambles and went to Boro, was then picked up by ManU so he clearly had the talent.
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Can't agree with you there. The youth system has changed over the last few years and the likes of Carroll, Vuckic and Krul have come from it.

Not every young player who plays at youth level then reserves has the ability to make the step up, this is the same at every club not just Newcastle.

Having Beardsley in running some parts of that set up has paid dividends and isn't he now Director of Youth Development or something?
 
A little off topic but just seen this from nufc.com...

'In the press box reporting for a Belgian broadcaster was Philippe Albert, who tried unsuccessfully to control himself when Cabaye's free kick went in - leaping to his feet and punching the air before remembering where he was. '

LEGEND :D
 
Why did we let Andy go? And i can believe the bit about him being shoved into defense. Once you've seen smelling go up front, carrick in defense and berbatov in cb then you know its not beyond the realms of possibility
 
The Running Man said:
Why did we let Andy go? And i can believe the bit about him being shoved into defense. Once you've seen smelling go up front, carrick in defense and berbatov in cb then you know its not beyond the realms of possibility
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Bit of miss information by me :o

Been cleared up above

After the Manchester utd school of excellence closed down he joined Newcastle.

He was a winger not defender before becoming a striker
 
drunkenmaster said:
too many players are just over rated and seen as flops, is Bebe a flop because he can't adapt, or was just never very good. Veron is considered a flop, so was Forlan, who knows why basically, they've both played essentially all over the world effectively
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Maybe you have a different view of what "flop" means to most fans then.

"Flop" does not necessarily relate to the skill of a player. It just means that they are unsuccessful relative to the transfer fee / wage / expectation placed on them. So when you say "just over rated and seen as flops", well, that's pretty much the whole point, if a player is overrated then by definition that means unless they improve, they will be a flop because they haven't lived up to expectations (whether the expections are realistic or not is irrelevant).

Veron and Forlan were considered flops because they were not successful here relative to their performances elsewhere. Again, the fact they were effective elsewhere makes it MORE likely that they would flop here, not less likely.

A player who was mediocre in Italy, comes to England and is mediocre again, may not necessarily be a flop if the fee paid and general expectation was low.

A player who was great in Italy, comes to England for big money and is average, then moves to Spain and is great again, could easily be a flop.
 
The point wasn't in reference to how good they are perceived to be there, but how good they are. In talking about a specific point, if Carr has a better "hit" rate for picking players who can play well in the EPL vs other leagues, the real question of if they were a flop was, were they simply never good in the first place.

The point being that Bebe simply doesn't seem like he was ever good, was rated by someone and someone else bought on that recommendation. That doesn't mean the player failed to adapt to the EPL, just that the player was never that good.

If Heskey was playing in, Serie A and scored 5 goals against crap opposition, in flukey games but was otherwise crap, if someone randomly decides he is just what they need, buys him, he joins, say Villa and is utterly useless. Would have have "flopped" due to being unable to adapt here, or simply because he wasn't good to start with.

Basically we're discussing if Carr has done anything expect buy quite well known players, and to any half decent scout should be on their radar, or if he's somehow been a great scout.
 
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