Haggling !!

[Maz]

to be fair to Fox

So far your sole contribution to this thread is to just **** on fox. If you're in possession of such amazing inside knowledge so as to know if fox's guess is accurate or note, how about helping the OP ?

I disklike fox's attitude sometimes, but i dont make it my mission to derail the thread having a go at him.

Look up, I posted some useful advice with regards to the question he had about cambelt/services.

And again if you look up, I can't imagine the OP has just looked at the first car and decided to buy it - so he'd have an idea what his car is worth and how much the car he is looking to buy will cost.

I'm not in possesion of "amazing inside knowledge" because to be in that position I'd have to know what the trader paid for this car, but I know I'm certainly not naive enough to think that the trader paid book price for it, and will offer the OP book price for his car and only retain £500 profit.

My dad got conned that way, he got quoted the finance at the flat rate of 5 %. My dad naively assumed that they'd be bound by law to quote him the APR when he asked for it, and had it in writing

Unfortunately after getting home it said 5 %, but didnt say 5% what. They'd quoted him the flat rate and not the APR. The APR worked out about 7.9 % or something. So not abysmal but not as good a deal as it looked.

Most car salesman are professional conmen unfortunately.

I don't know where your dad bought his car from but unless he signs whatever is put in front of him without looking at it, he would have clearly seen the APR printed on the finance document.

And if he is the type of person who signs whatever is put in front of him, I'd suggest that he's more careful in the future and reads IMPORTANT things such as interest rates on loans.

Because it is a legal requirement set by the government + the FSA absolutely every finance company out there adheres to this very strictly as the FSA has the powers to fine them as they please.

Oh and Fox, I sell New Mercedes Benz - not that it makes any difference.

 

[Maz]

OP - Sounds like a cracking deal, make sure you get plenty of Tax and a Fresh MOT off him.

Because he is a trader you are obliged to 3 months warranty by law, don't be scared to mention this as Trading Standards would love to hear from you if they don't honour this.

 

[Fr0dders]

Because it is a legal requirement set by the government + the FSA absolutely every finance company out there adheres to this very strictly as the FSA has the powers to fine them as they please.

i wish i shared similar confidence in car salesman as you

unfortunately i could find no mention of APR in his documents. The only one i could find was the one that quoted an "interest rate" of 5 %

And the very requirements you stated, are the very reason why he thought they couldnt lie. I wonder why they backed down so hastily when he exercised his cooling off period ? ... because they'd try to pull a fast one and we'd caught them out thats why.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I take it your dealership won't be renewing it's very expensive annual subscription with Eurotax Glass's this year then Maz? After all, nobody pays book for cars, do they? So knowing what book is is utterly useless.

I guess it's a complete co-incidence that every time I've had my car valued for part-ex they've come out with a figure using CAP or Glass's. Becuase of course nobody pays that for cars..

 

[Maz]

i wish i shared similar confidence in car salesman as you

unfortunately i could find no mention of APR in his documents. The only one i could find was the one that quoted an "interest rate" of 5 %

And the very requirements you stated, are the very reason why he thought they couldnt lie. I wonder why they backed down so hastily when he exercised his cooling off period ? ... because they'd try to pull a fast one and we'd caught them out thats why.

I'm sorry but I find this very difficult to believe, unless your dad had to use the likes of "Knee cap Loan Sharks" for example, every finance company (NOT THE DEALER) has to print APR on all finance documentation,.

I hope you do realise that the "Finance Company" and the "Dealer" are two seperate entities and the dealer acts as an agent selling the finance companies product - namely the finance or loan. So responsibility for the documentation lies with the finance company and not the dealer and they are acting on behalf of the finance company.

Where as sub prime lenders often get away with this type of thing, but if you need to borrow from a sub prime lender you really shouldn't be borrowing.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Have to back Maz up here - in the last few years everyone has become VERY aware of the FSA regulations and even the most dodgy of car salesman are very loath to bend the FSA regulations. One important part of these regulations is that the documentation (Which most people dont read) MUST state the APR.

 

[Maz]

I take it your dealership won't be renewing it's very expensive annual subscription with Eurotax Glass's this year then Maz? After all, nobody pays book for cars, do they? So knowing what book is is utterly useless.

I guess it's a complete co-incidence that every time I've had my car valued for part-ex they've come out with a figure using CAP or Glass's. Becuase of course nobody pays that for cars..

We of course will be renewing Glasses guide as it is an essential tool in the day to day running of any dealership, I don't know how often you get values for your car as a part exchange because I do this everyday and I can assure you that there are VERY few cars worth Glasses Guide book price, and even more so given current financial climate.

What I will say is that a price for a car to be valued and a car to be valued as part exchange *MAY* vary especially depending on the type of thing you are looking to buy, I mean an example would be:

Customer comes in wanting to buy an A Class that has very little profit against it, I can only offer them whatever their car is worth in real terms, same customer comes in to buy an new SL63 at list price - I can pretty much offer them what they want by taking real value of the car (Below Book) and using the huge amount of profit in new car (Margin) to top part exchange price up.

 

[[TW]Fox]

We of course will be renewing Glasses guide as it is an essential tool in the day to day running of any dealership,

No it isn't - its meaningless. Nobody buys cars for guide price. Very few cars are worth book price apparently? So why pay so much for it if its so useless?

Your second point is very valid - but the cost to change remains similar regardless of whether you give them book or more than book for their car but sell them the new car at list or give them loads of discount on the new car at list and then give them lower than book for theirs.

And it was a cost to change I came up with, not a value.

Thanks for defining 'margin' though, I'd never have understood a term as complex as that otherwise

 

[Maz]

No it isn't - its meaningless. Nobody buys cars for guide price. Very few cars are worth book price apparently? So why pay so much for it if its so useless?

I don't know if you understand the meaning of the word "Guide" but the Glasses Guide is published to be used as a "Guide" as to the value of any given used car.

I mean if you don't really understand the meaning of the word, he is something I copied from Dictionary.com

Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source - Share This
guide·book Audio Help /ˈgaɪdˌbʊk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[gahyd-book] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun a book of directions, advice, and information, esp. for travelers or tourists.

A book used for advice as opposed to gospel.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Awesome, thanks for that. It's proved really useful becuase until this thread I had no idea what it was.

Would you like me to look up the word 'about' for you? I used it in my post. It's meaning is similar to approximate and implies movement in the value rather than being fixed, as you'd expect from a figure given by somebody who was unable to comprehend the word guide. Do you want a dictionary.com link to that?

 

[Moonpie2]

Now now children, play nice

Because he is a trader you are obliged to 3 months warranty by law, don't be scared to mention this as Trading Standards would love to hear from you if they don't honour this.

Ohhhh interesting !!
I'll mention that.
Where can I see this nugget of info in official writing ?

Well, I'll check every page of the service book on Thurs, and ring the garage that did the last service, and if that comes up blank then I guess....ummm.... once I have it I could just get a local garage to check if the cambelt is looking good or not and take it from there.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Are you sure you are legally obliged to 3 months warranty and that you are not confusing this with the fact that for the first 6 months of any used car purchase, the burden of proof to show that a fault was not present at the time of sale is on the retailer not the buyer?

In reality this makes it hard for any retailer to dispute faults found in the first 6 months so most chose to offer a warranty to cover themselves. This is the first I have heard of a legal right to a 3 month warranty, though. I'm keen to expand my knowledge, could you link me to the relevant statute?

 

[Maz]

Awesome, thanks for that. It's proved really useful becuase until this thread I had no idea what it was.

Would you like me to look up the word 'about' for you? I used it in my post. It's meaning is similar to approximate and implies movement in the value rather than being fixed, as you'd expect from a figure given by somebody who was unable to comprehend the word guide. Do you want a dictionary.com link to that?

I think I might be able to manage that one, I'm sure I've used that word once or twice.

I think I've made my point here, and sure as hell I have to be up early tomorrow so good night!

Op - Pics when you get it! I just hope it's not green or yellow or any other horrible colour.

 

[Maz]

Are you sure you are legally obliged to 3 months warranty and that you are not confusing this with the fact that for the first 6 months of any used car purchase, the burden of proof to show that a fault was not present at the time of sale is on the retailer not the buyer?

In reality this makes it hard for any retailer to dispute faults found in the first 6 months so most chose to offer a warranty to cover themselves. This is the first I have heard of a legal right to a 3 month warranty, though. I'm keen to expand my knowledge, could you link me to the relevant statute?

Yes I'm absolutely certain that required by law that all retails sales must carry 3 month warranty, I'm sure you're keen to expand your knowledge on this subject unfortunately I don't have a relevant source to link you to.

However if you want to drive up to Newcastle, I'm sure I could lend you our guides which detail all customer rights and regulations with regards to the sale of used cars.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Yes I'm absolutely certain that required by law that all retails sales must carry 3 month warranty, I'm sure you're keen to expand your knowledge on this subject unfortunately I don't have a relevant source to link you to.

I can't say I'm suprised. I'm pretty sure there is no such obligation but the situation is as I said - burden of proof is on the retailer in the first 6 months to prove any fault was not present at the time of purchase. After 6 months this swaps to the consumer. As a result, any sensible dealer will offer a warranty both to add value and to cover himself against any issues.

Still, I'm sure your training manual has a higher standing in law than the Sale of Goods Act.

 

[Maz]

I can't say I'm suprised. I'm pretty sure there is no such obligation but the situation is as I said - burden of proof is on the retailer in the first 6 months to prove any fault was not present at the time of purchase. After 6 months this swaps to the consumer. As a result, any sensible dealer will offer a warranty both to add value and to cover himself against any issues.

Still, I'm sure your training manual has a higher standing in law than the Sale of Goods Act.

Sales of goods act does state this as you say, but dealers must also provide at least 3 months warranty with used cars on all retail sales.

As you can imagine proving that certain faults were not present at time of purchase is very easy for some particular faults, such as faulty electricals etc, but more difficult for things like wheel bearings or gearboxes but the warranty is there to protect the consumer from sudden failures.

 

[[TW]Fox]

I can't find any mention of a mandatory 3 month warranty on used car sales within the SOGA.

Go to bed or you'll blame me for being tired tommorrow

 

[Avalon]

3 months is the minimum unless it's a trade sale as Maz said but the link escapes me atm. Maz would you by any chance be based at Scotswood ?

 

[Gaygle]

So anyway, yeah, back to the thread...

When are we seeing pics then?!

 

[Moonpie2]

Well I'm popping along to drop off the deposit and give it another thorough going over tomorrow so I can take some pics then.
But really, there's not much to see.... its a silver Clio