Heel toe driving?

Nozzer · 3 Mar 2006 at 23:51

NickXX said:
Never worked out why you'd ever need it on normal roads.

It sounds good :cool:

Che · 4 Mar 2006 at 03:49

Damn, Senna was good!

JRS · 4 Mar 2006 at 03:54

Che said:
Damn, Senna was good!

Yep, he was.

I've only ever attempted heel and toe once on the road, and found it quite easy to get the hang of. God bless the Seicento designers who placed the pedals in the perfect position for h+t

burns · 4 Mar 2006 at 08:28

Nozzer said:
It sounds good

Yup

. Main reason I do it though is the syncro is dodgy on second and it goes in easily with some heal and toe action. I could never get it right in the 309, but the pedals seem to be laid out better in the chevette.

Lopéz · 4 Mar 2006 at 09:03

NickXX said:
Never worked out why you'd ever need it on normal roads.

You don't "need" it, but it does sound and feel nice.

Hodders · 9 Oct 2006 at 11:53

Che said:
Damn, Senna was good!

Bad shoes and the white socks = 80s fashion !

Top driver though.

I used to heel and toe in my old caterham mainly because the carbs had no choke and when cold the engine would die.

Plus the handbrake couldn't be reached when the four point harnesses were done up. So I had to be able to use the foot brake to hold it on a hill for a hill start.

Oh and also, practising on the roads made it more natural on track days....

Ron Burgundy · 9 Oct 2006 at 11:59

NickXX said:
Ah, I suppose so - I do stomp on the accelator occasionally to level the car - I guess sorting out proper footwork might make it a little easier.

Wouldnt work in Diesels anyway. Drive by wire and the way diesels work means that the throttle wont blip while the brake pedal is depressed.

JRS · 9 Oct 2006 at 12:00

That's some serious thread resurrection there Hodders

Freefaller · 9 Oct 2006 at 12:13

Lopéz said:
You don't "need" it, but it does sound and feel nice.

Hell yeah.

Furthermore the MX5's pedals are perfectly positioned for doing it - I've just got into the habit of doing it - then again I kill children everytime I drive my car. Also in a bike you do a similar sort of thing when downshifting - brake whilst blipping down the gears - it's all about being smooth and stopping the weight shifting around too much.

Havana_UK · 9 Oct 2006 at 12:23

Ron Burgundy said:
Wouldnt work in Diesels anyway. Drive by wire and the way diesels work means that the throttle wont blip while the brake pedal is depressed.

Not true.

My Saab 1.9TiD blips perfectly when the brake pedal is depressed.

I can even left foot brake for a good second before the engine management cuts the power when both brake and accelerator pedals are pressed simultaneously.

Hav

nicRob · 9 Oct 2006 at 13:42

Havana_UK said:
Not true.

My Saab 1.9TiD blips perfectly when the brake pedal is depressed.

I can even left foot brake for a good second before the engine management cuts the power when both brake and accelerator pedals are pressed simultaneously.

Hav

My fiesta blips perfectly too. use h+t a lot, just for smoother downshifts when braking etc.

Ev0 · 9 Oct 2006 at 13:56

Same with the Clio, the pedals are spaced just so that you can roll your foot to blip the throttle, kinder to the 'box as well

Tesla · 9 Oct 2006 at 14:10

If I am out hooning about in the Mondeo I sometime use heel and toe, just to keep downchages smooth really but only neccesary when I am driving it really hard.

Simon · 9 Oct 2006 at 14:18

Use it all the time on the S2000 when driving fast, pedals are placed perfectly for it and it keeps thing smooth.

Took someone out in on Saturday and they commented on how fluid my driving was. Certainly no jarring downshifts

Lashout_UK · 9 Oct 2006 at 14:19

I heel and toe quite often, for allsorts - just because my Triumph rewards driving without the clutch! Much more entertaining too, whilst remaining controlled.

Bout the only time I do reach for the clutch is when moving off from stationary

Must stick up some vids of that when I'm home

Housey · 9 Oct 2006 at 14:31

I use Heel & Toe changes on the track all the time and also when making brisk progress on the road. It makes for a much smoother change down and transition between gears and there are typically two methods for doing it. These will depend on factors such as size of your feet and the pedal layout in your car, but when done properly will give you real satisfaction and a great sound to your down changes, unless you get it wrong of course!

1: I tend to prefer to pivot my right foot around the ball under my big toe. As I approach a corner I will 'catch' the throttle pedal with the right had side of my foot as I brake. If you draw a line (not literally!) down the centre of your right foot I am pivoting around that. I have used this technique for over 20 years and have managed to do it in most cars with ease.

2: The second and if you like 'classic' approach is to pivot around the ball of your right foot, pivoting around this and using your heel to 'catch' the throttle pedal as apposed to the side of your foot. This, in my experience is harder to do but has the same effect.

I don’t agree that you should not use it on the road or that it adds no benefit. Everyone on here drives quickly on occasion (and that does not mean over the limit necessarily) and if braking late for say an island while coming down the box heel toeing will smooth out your down changes and put less stress on the clutch and gearbox. Personally I thinks its one of the added enjoyments of driving, but I have always preferred corners and steering to trying to do ¼ mile runs or fast 0-60 times.

merlin · 9 Oct 2006 at 14:37

I'll C&P an explanation I posted on DC5 forum a while back, might help somebody.

Left foot - stays on clutch. End of story.

Right foot :-

Let's imagine you're in 4th gear, coming up to a bend, you need to change down a gear to 3rd.

Come off the gas pedal
Move right foot onto brake and start braking
Press clutch in
Move gear from 4th to 3rd

DONT BRING CLUTCH UP

Instead:-

Keeping your toe on the brake, swivel your right foot so you can tap the gas pedal with the right side of the lower part of your foot - you wont be hitting it with your full heel, just the right side of your heel, and flick the revs up.

Do this - hit the gas and flick the revs up to match the engine speed you are going to get when you bring the clutch up and engage 3rd

Once the revs are up, bring clutch up.

That's a smooth change down - you've been braking all the time, and you've change gear, but because you've flicked the revs up before bring the clutch up - you've got the engine speed and transmission speed the same so the engine has not been lunging and rocking around in the engine bay or the clutch worn unnecessarily.

Lashout_UK · 9 Oct 2006 at 14:48

Thing that always gets me - if you're going to that hassle, why are you bothering with the clutch. I don't.

Much faster if you just knock it out of fourth, blip the throttle with the heel of your foot and clip it into 3rd....or 2nd...etc.....get beautifully clean shifts, even on my old 1500 box.

Otherwise you're doing it for almost no benifit.

Housey · 9 Oct 2006 at 15:05

Lashout_UK said:
Thing that always gets me - if you're going to that hassle, why are you bothering with the clutch. I don't.

Much faster if you just knock it out of fourth, blip the throttle with the heel of your foot and clip it into 3rd....or 2nd...etc..

Otherwise you're doing it for almost no benifit.

You are somewhat missing the point of the process, the benefit is one of reduced stress on the gearbox something your 'technique' does not offer. It is also no quicker to do a clutchless gearchange, and is often slower as you will experience bulking. The objective is to smooth gear changes when using high engine revs and to ensure a better balance and smoothness when changing down through the gears at faster speeds.

Clutchless gearchanges are not a sensible practice for modern road cars and if you get it wrong, as most will on ocasion it can be very expensive. I for one would not wish to replace the gearbox on my car because I missed a change. Clutchless gearchanges on certain cars (such as TR6's...) are OK, but a well driven manual will change just as quick with the clutch as without in my own experience.

Lashout_UK · 9 Oct 2006 at 15:17

You are somewhat missing the point of the process, the benefit is one of reduced stress on the gearbox something your 'technique' does not offer.

Shock loading may be a little higher but provided I get the syncro bang on, it's probably indifferent. Less load on the thrust bearings of the crank, too It's tough enough for it regardless, though, so I'm not fussed about that.

It is also no quicker to do a clutchless gearchange, and is often slower as you will experience bulking.

Never experienced 'bulking'. Damn thing's like a rifle bolt - "Clink" and it's off!

- you probably are indeed right though, I guess it's down to timing as to wether you could get the clutch bang on with the shift, or just partial clutch, given as most operate about a few inches from the top.

The objective is to smooth gear changes when using high engine revs and to ensure a better balance and smoothness when changing down through the gears at faster speeds.

Yes, of course

I find that I do occasionally get jarring shifts, usually when things aren't quite set. I'll try it with the clutch next time and see how it goes, per your advice. On the whole though, apart from in extenuating circumstances where road speed suddenly decreases, or engine speed suddenly increases, I find the shifts are usually very sweet.

Clutchless gearchanges are not a sensible practice for modern road cars and if you get it wrong, as most will on ocasion it can be very expensive.

Not sure - I'll have to do some experiments when I get back as I've never really compared the two methods. I'll give it a whirl! Also, if you miss a shift the worst that's going to happen is you hit the limiter, grind the dogs a little - unless you totally stuff it up and get the wrong gear....

Don't drive modern cars that much, mostly just Triumphs

...have to say on the most part in daily driving I do use the clutch, just not when blatting about