Forest fans were NOT based at that end of the ground. They had already taken to their terrace/seating in a civilised manner.
Hillsborough Disaster
- Thread starter cheets64
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Forest fans were NOT based at that end of the ground. They had already taken to their terrace/seating in a civilised manner.
What the actual **** have Juventus got to do with a thread about Hillsborough?
I actually think you should leave the thread alone
I didn't say that all the family and friends I had were in the crush, some where, nor did I say the Forest fans were in that side of the ground.
I'm pretty familiar with the ground were I hold a season ticket thank you very much.
I was saying, that of all the people that were at the game, none of them have said that what the Sun reported had anything based in truth.
Rather than posting ill informed *******s, why don't you go and educate yourself as to what actually happened at Hillsborough because to even bring up Heysel shows you have no ****ing idea what you're talking about.
And when you claim there is truth to an article that claimed Liverpool supporters done vile things that day, you're being disrespectful every supporter that was there that day not just those that died.
You complained about not getting a win due to the death of 96 people and all those who it affected in any shape or form (evidently not yourself), that is very disrespectful.
There is no "Liverpool point of view", there is only great sadness that so many people died in such a tragic event.
Juventus has NOTHING to do with the Hillsborough disaster, I just think you are a sick, twisted, bitter person.
Soldato
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Easy to do if you're not herded in like cattle by police into a space that was designed for half the capacity. <- this is proven fact by the way, feel free to look it up. 3,000 people directed into a 1,600 capacity, negligence cannot be denied.
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Actually, although I have just responded, I have to say - just let it go guys, it's not worth it. There are always going to be those out there that want to believe what they believe, rather than the facts.
If he really believes what he's saying and just has a massive chip on his shoulder you won't change it by sensible arguments - anyone who wants to make a 'point' about Hillsborough and brings in the Heysel argument to do so has already lost the debate and undermined any credibility they had, especially when what they say directly contradicts findings from the subsequent inquiries and court cases related to both tragedies. They don't have any proven evidence to support what they say, because there isn't any, they just come with hearsay and usually blatent lies (in some cases misunderstandings) and those old 'my neighbour's postman's sister's brother was there and he said...blah blah blah nonsense'.
On the other hand, if he is trolling, every time you answer, he's winning, so either way it's probably best left.
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The way you worded a previous post implied that forest and neutral fans were in the crush, apologies if that's not the case
He should be glad this isn't any one of the numerous football forums out there. Even redcafe (diehard M. United fan forum, for those who don't know) dish out lifelong bans for people talking nonsense about this disaster.
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And no, Heysel was not all Liverpool fans fault either, having family there, but as was the case with all English club in europe 'trouble' its completely the English clubs fault, it fit the media agenda for the day.
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And no, Heysel was not all Liverpool fans fault either, having family there, but as was the case with all English club in europe 'trouble' its completely the English clubs fault, it fit the media agenda for the day.
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Heysel is relevant as although this is about those Liverpool fans who died at hillsborough, the same jovial and cheeky scousers that killed the juventus fans, turned up to hillsborough in their thousands without tickets. Yes the police should have handled it better, but if you are expecting say 1000 fans and 3000 turn up then there will always be problems. The innocent that died would have likely paid to be there and got themselves setup, the ones that crushed them I'd say at least 50% wouldnt have had a ticket.
It's akin to running over a kid doing 50 in a 30 zone and blaming the police for not being there to slow you down.
There are facts and then there are the scousers facts, unfortunately the latter is all we are allowed to believe.
You can call me heartless or a troll but I'm allowed my opinion on the cause and probably unlike some of you in here who spout off, I have given money to HFSG and hope that those families can get some closure and be able to move forward as hard as it always will be for them.
http://www.hfsg.net/news.html
Infect I'd invite you all to donate what you can as this is how the thread should have started.
Infect I'd invite you all to donate what you can as this is how the thread should have started.
Soldato
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You're not understanding. These are the fans that had tickets. You used to be able to turn up anywhere and get tickets, however once they were told there was capacity sellout, they were not able to leave the area due to the crush, so they became an obstacle. The side gate was opened to alleviate the initial crush.
taylor report said:
BBC said:
It is the second part that is the whole crux of the issue. No-one has EVER explained why this didn't happen. If it had, there was enough capacity to house the fans. End of story. It's basic mathematics.
They should have been spread out across the whole area, they weren't, they were penned into an area that had wrongly (due to a misunderstanding in safety regulations) been deemed fit to hold more people than it was able to. Add to this that there were empty pens on either side, the police put ticket holding fans into one space that was never meant to hold that many people, instead of putting them in each space. That was an admitted police error.
This is nothing to do with ticketless fans whatsoever. There were some there, BUT, had the police done their job properly, this would never have happened. So the 'me driving a car too fast' analogy doesn't really work because to really make it like this case, the child wouldn't be in the road in front of me unless the police forced it into my path.
And.....just so you know, I live and work in Liverpool, and no-one thinks that the fans were angels, no huge group of football fans are - the point is that when the truth comes out, there WILL be evidence of police negligence, corruption and cover up. It's not 'scouser' facts, it's the facts PROVEN by a court of law in this country when given the evidence. Not people on the internet mashing up facts and posting hearsay.
People will accept there was SOME drunk fans, there will doubtless have been SOME there to cause trouble, SOME without tickets just like with EVERY OTHER MATCH around that time. No-one is denying that. What people want to see is the truth. There will be some that isn't nice to hear for us, but more importantly, is the truth about the lies that were told - like the policeman who reported that the Liverpool fans shouted 'throw her up here and we'll **** her' about a dead girl who it later turned out was being given mouth to mouth by a Liverpool supporter that the policeman reported as sexual abuse (later disproven and retracted). THAT is what we want. Not a whitewash that claims Liverpool fans are angels, just the truth that proves that they were blamed for a tragedy that was not their fault, because the police and the government LIED and destroyed evidence (CCTV tapes anyone?) because they knew they messed up.
Thankyou for posting the link, I do donate regularly and attend the services.
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As kitten_caboodle says, in those days it wasn't unusual for some ticketless fans to turn up on the day. However it's been proven that there was not an abnormally high number of ticketless fans (nothing remotely like what you're trying to imply) and that ticketless fans and/or hooliganism played no part in what happened at Hillsborough. Stop posting ill informed bs.
You really can't be this bitter because we beat you, surely.
Guys,
As tactfully as possible, is there a good resource that someone can recommend linking me that I can read up on the whole 'justice' side of this? Obviously it was a horrendous tragedy but are we talking about ineptness of police that has been covered up or something?
Apologies, but although I know about the tragedy itself, I don't know a lot about what information the fans are pushing for etc etc?
Thanks
As tactfully as possible, is there a good resource that someone can recommend linking me that I can read up on the whole 'justice' side of this? Obviously it was a horrendous tragedy but are we talking about ineptness of police that has been covered up or something?
Apologies, but although I know about the tragedy itself, I don't know a lot about what information the fans are pushing for etc etc?
Thanks
Here's an excellent article from last week:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/17/hillsborough-disaster-legacy-lies
edit: These questions give a good incite into what happened too:
http://downloads.hfdinfo.com/3HFD20Qs.pdf
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/oct/17/hillsborough-disaster-legacy-lies
edit: These questions give a good incite into what happened too:
http://downloads.hfdinfo.com/3HFD20Qs.pdf
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Soldato
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The former was an excellent read thanks for the link.
You can roll out whatever excuse you want, ill believe what I choose to and im happy how I base that belief. Im not going to get sucked into any further discussion as im going round in circles against probably a few who do have valid views.. including yourself, and then another 6 or 7 posters on here just wanting to cling on and get the kudos for jumping in on something they barely know about.
Not bitter about the loss, but you didnt beat us - it was a game we were never going to win as it wouldnt have been right.
From someone who worked on the turnstiles:
These are the things ignored by Liverpool fans - the deaths overshadow the facts that although there were errors made, IF those Liverpool fans hadnt turned up the chaos could or maybe would have been avoided.
Athens, another example in recent times of Liverpool fans rushing gates without tickets... luckily nowadays disasters can be avoided.
Heysel, as much as Liverpool deny their involvement, it was their fault for rushing the Italian fans.
Not a subject to poke fun at is it ? Von.
These are the things ignored by Liverpool fans - the deaths overshadow the facts that although there were errors made, IF those Liverpool fans hadnt turned up the chaos could or maybe would have been avoided.
Athens, another example in recent times of Liverpool fans rushing gates without tickets... luckily nowadays disasters can be avoided.
Heysel, as much as Liverpool deny their involvement, it was their fault for rushing the Italian fans.
Not a subject to poke fun at is it ? Von.
Why do you keep referring to Hysel where many an educated Liverpool fan realises Liverpool fans played a huge part in the travesty?
Suppose our fans were to blame for being attacked in Rome in 84 and Napoli last year?
Is it Liverpool's fans fault we have the economics crisis aswell?
Suppose our fans were to blame for being attacked in Rome in 84 and Napoli last year?
Is it Liverpool's fans fault we have the economics crisis aswell?