How and why the hell do people defend the actions of travellers?

Craig1981 said:
^ Well put. They get all the benefits and protection from society, without ever having to contribute anything in return. I feel about travellers the same way I feel about junkie scum bags leeching off the benefits system all their days. They should be cut off completely from all support. Let them sink or swim. Let them get jobs. Let them get educated. And if they wont, then let them go away and never come back.
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It's a bit of a blanket statement to assume all junkies are scum-bags.

What's needed is to integrate them into society, or if that's impossible apply pressure on them to ensure they follow our laws regarding criminality, paying taxes & ensuring they provide adequate care to there children who are in the UK.

(this is of course only referring to the actual problematic communities, which isn't all of them).
 
On page 1 I posted this.....

estebanrey said:
I blame Hitler.

Sorry to invoke Godwin so early in the thread but basically ever since the persecution of the Jews we've become so scared pf producing another Adolf we've decided (or rather Guardian readers have) that having a pop at any group of people that could be considered a "community" is intrinsically a bad thing and only a step away from advocating mass genocide.

This now means if you are in a minority group, you can basically do what the hell you want because any criticism can be answered with the race card (even though Gypsies aren't a race but try telling that to Shami Chakrabarti) or claims of 'persecution'.
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On page 4 this is posted.....

Jasonst888 said:
No killing eh? mmm but not really got enough space to lock them all up...we would need some form of 'Final Solution'......hey Himmler you got any ideas??
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Point categorically proven.
 
We had some move in to where I work for 'a couple of days while a truck is fixed'.

Boss wasn't too keen though and asked them to move along, basically got a lot of abuse and almost ran over by a transit van.

We called in bailiffs in the end who managed to force them out once the police arrived (so they couldn't report any 'abuse' that might of happened to them).

£2200 to get them moved on and one awesome photo out my office window ;)

zl75E.jpg.png


They were clean if nothing else :p
 
I cant imagine the social pressure they must be feeling, the fact that almost everyone dislikes them for their lifestyle choice.

No.
 
elmarko1234 said:
Low standards of education - check.
Poverty - check.

.
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I've not read the whole thread so apologies if this is a bit out of context but 'Low standard of education'? this is the 'travellers' own fault, failure to try and intergrate in any way into society has left these people without proper education and it seems they only care about this if their being persecuted using it as a 'get out of jail free card'

As for poverty dont even get me started - some of these people (a small minority) actually pay for the land they live and some even contribute a small amount of tax - however from what I know most do not pay their way at all - they do jobs and only take cash in hand with the purpose of avoiding tax - some of these 'tavellers' are very well off indeed - there standard of living is their own choosing and not due to lack of funds!
 
elmarko1234 said:
What's needed is to integrate them into society, or if that's impossible apply pressure on them to ensure they follow our laws regarding criminality, paying taxes & ensuring they provide adequate care to there children who are in the UK.
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That would be ideal. The real problem stems from the fact that the government and the police wont take the neccessery actions to control these people. They wouldnt let US do half the things these people get away with. We would get thrown in prison or slapped with community service. They get to swan around with impunity.
 
Guerrilla said:
There are a fair few around where i work that seem to have been there for ages. One thing which does annoy me is the fact they leave their horses tied up with a scratty piece of rope next to fairly busy roads on land they don't own. I know horses are hardy animals but they don't look well cared for and are jsut left out regardless of the weather.

I have never understood why they keep the horses either, it'd make sense if living in horse drawn caravans, but they don't and the state of some of them i get the impression they don't really care about them.
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This is what upsets my gf the most about them.

She has had horses her whole life and loves them dearly, but constantly sees them being treated like crap by travellers.

Whether it is being tied up near a road, munching on weeds that do nothing for their malnurishment, or being raced down the motorway dragging scabby little carriages, they are treated terribly. :(

She was also threatened by a group of them when her car broke down in the countryside and had to lock herself in her car and call the police.

So whilst I can't extrapolate this to all travellers, every one that she and her family has encountered over the years has been a scumbag.
 
estebanrey said:
On page 1 I posted this.....



On page 4 this is posted.....



Point categorically proven.
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I think having a pop at any group based on the actions of individuals is intrinsically wrong. Blame hitler or whoever you like. I am as critical of those using race to defend someones actions as I am of those using it to justify their hatred.

Thing is we can hate any group of people for the actions of a few, its so simple, but it isnt right and it achieves nothing. For instance Had a bike race along my road last weekend (have had them every couple months for as long as I can remember) they make a god awful mess at the rest stop which happens to back onto my garden so I get plenty of plastic cups oh so politely thrown over my fence. Then there is the fact all the supporters block up the entire side road I live on with their cars so I can't get out without finding the owners of 6-7 cars and engaging in a rather subtle game of thread the Seat through the gaps! Then even when you get on the main road you are stuck at 10-20mph on a 60mph stretch due to all the bikes. Do I hate all bikers for this monthly annoyance? No. Do I begrudge them using the road that they don't pay tax to be on for their pleasure? Not really. Do I begrudge the mess? Well it hardly makes me do back flips but take 5 minutes to clean. Fact is the individuals who mess up my garden anger me, but I don't feel that all bike riders are going to litter up my garden...why apply such reasoning to any other group?

Or if I'm wrong let me be the first to advocate intergrating bike riders into the society of cars? put a stop to their pesky behaviour once and for all? :p
 
Its quiet now but in my town there were battles raging between 2 traveling families. Shotguns being used against cars and caravans, fights all over the place, drug dealing, the lot. Our town (St Helens) had to draft in more cops from surrounding areas like liverpool and manchester to get a hold of the situation. special squads Titan and Matrix were often used and a load of them were arrested.

No love for *****'s in this town.

Heres 3 examples.

http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/9674781.Is_shooting_connected_to_St_Helens_traveller_feud_/
http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/9658099.Police_investigate_after_vehicles_are_firebombed/
http://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/news/9549180.Gang_terror_in_the_park/
 
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Never met a tinker who wasn't a piece of ****, tbh. That's not to say they all are, but any I've ever experienced have been. Hell, even ones I didn't personally experience when they nicked our barbecue from the back garden in the middle of the night after setting up camp just outside the village.
 
Jasonst888 said:
I think having a pop at any group based on the actions of individuals is intrinsically wrong.
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OK so it is wrong to condemn the Taliban, the Nazis, the BNP, the KKK etc then?

I'm sure in each of those groups they were/are a few 'good eggs' and nice people but that doesn't mean you can't condemn them as a group of people..

Jasonst888 said:
Thing is we can hate any group of people for the actions of a few
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Is it a few though? From what I hear it seems the nice ones you met are the minority.

And doesn't that argument work both ways, if it's wrong for people to judge gyspies as 'scum' on the basis they've had bad experiences, isn't it just as wrong for you to judge them as 'good' because you've met a couple of nice ones?
 
estebanrey said:
OK so it is wrong to condemn the Taliban, the Nazis, the BNP, the KKK etc then?
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Strawman level 99!

The things that are the very definition of those groups is what makes them abhorrent. Being a scumbag isn't actually a prerequisite to being a traveller, most just turn out that way.
 
krooton said:
Strawman level 99!

The things that are the very definition of those groups is what makes them abhorrent. Being a scumbag isn't actually a prerequisite to being a traveller, most just turn out that way.
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Firstly it's not a strawman. Secondly whilst I'd agree with you on the KKK and maybe the BNP, the others weren't intrinsically bad groups, they just became so because of the directions they took and/or the members they had.

For example, not every member of the Nazi party (Godwin again) supported the extermination of the Jews (most actually didn't know it was going on) so in the same way you say being a scumbag isn't a prerequisite of being a traveller, being a Jew murderer wasn't a pre-requisite of joining the Nazi party. Several of the accused at the Nuremberg trials were acquitted of all charges because they hadn't actually done anything wrong or even been aware of it.

And I disagree that being a traveller comes with no immoral pre-requisites. Not paying tax by doing cash in hand jobs is pretty much a given 'cultural' thing for them and tress passing is an occupational hazard. So even if you took the friendliest gypsy in England he would still be someone who regularly broke the law
 
estebanrey said:
OK so it is wrong to condemn the Taliban, the Nazis, the BNP, the KKK etc then?

I'm sure in each of those groups they were/are a few 'good eggs' and nice people but that doesn't mean you can't condemn them as a group of people..



Is it a few though? From what I hear it seems the nice ones you met are the minority.

And doesn't that argument work both ways, if it's wrong for people to judge gyspies as 'scum' on the basis they've had bad experiences, isn't it just as wrong for you to judge them as 'good' because you've met a couple of nice ones?
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To quote myself in post 88 "you can no more claim all travellers are scum than I can claim the opposite based on my less negative experiences." and again quoting my eariler post: "My point is not to paint them as angels or even to dispute that those that you have encountered were in fact scum."

I'm not saying they are all good. I'm just saying they are all people and like any group of people some are good, some are bad. You hear more about the bad but then again the same is true of every public interest piece, negative stuff makes good news. Every other paper will happily tell you that some traveller didn't pay his tax and owes the county £**** but you won't ever see a single line stating how a different traveller paid his taxes without fail...why not? because who cares.....such things are boring far more interesting to foster hatred for travellers....far easier to!
 
krooton said:
Strawman level 99!

The things that are the very definition of those groups is what makes them abhorrent. Being a scumbag isn't actually a prerequisite to being a traveller, most just turn out that way.
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Maybe it is a prerequisite though?

It seems to be a core part of their upbringing (practically ownership of their women, fighting, horse ownership (and cruelty?), working without paying tax, not paying council tax etc.)

These are all part of their culture and upbringing but they are very secretive and guarded about it.
 
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