How and why the hell do people defend the actions of travellers?

estebanrey said:
Firstly it's not a strawman.
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It's the king of the strawmen.

The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:

1.Person A has position X.
2.Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. The position Y is a distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
1.Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.
2.Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see fallacy of quoting out of context).[2]
3.Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[1]
4.Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
5.Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
3.Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position.
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grimm said:
Maybe it is a prerequisite though?

It seems to be a core part of their upbringing (practically ownership of their women, fighting, horse ownership (and cruelty?), working without paying tax, not paying council tax etc.)

These are all part of their culture and upbringing but they are very secretive and guarded about it.
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That's product of environment though.

Far fewer people are born in to the BNP/KKK/Nazi/etc lifestyle, most choose to go in to it. It's pretty much the opposite with travellers, though you still end up with a shedload of scummers.
 
They are scum and I have no idea why people are defending them.

My only guess is they've never had to actually deal with violent, thieving, *****.
 
Because funnily enough not ALL travellers are the same :rolleyes:
Like it or not their are plenty of hard working honest travellers, but hey don't let that fact get in the way of your sweeping prejudice towards them ;)
 
krooton said:
Strawman level 99!

The things that are the very definition of those groups is what makes them abhorrent. Being a scumbag isn't actually a prerequisite to being a traveller, most just turn out that way.
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however being a scumbag is a prerequisite of being a ***** :p
 
My experiences of the Irish Travellers have always been negative. My first experience of them was when I was in secondary school, they left after their third year but I remember one of them asking if they could borrow my pen. It was quite an expensive pen, but he was only sat in front of me so I agreed, a few minutes later when it was quite obvious he was taking the **** I asked for it back. I was met with abuse and a threat that he would set his brothers on me. They were always causing problems for other pupils too, stealing lunch money, taking things from the canteen, waiting for people to buy something from the vending machine and then 4 or 5 of them surrounding the machine, pushing the person out of the way and taking the stuff which had just dropped.

My mother moved house a couple of years ago, while she was waiting for the delivery truck she had a load of stuff stolen by a couple of well known gypsies in a flat back transit. We had a few boxes piled up outside the front door and while we were around the back of the house in the kitchen they decided to pull up outside and help themselves to a few of the boxes. Classy. Then, when she moved into her new house she hired a skip so we could throw some old furniture away, obviously the gypsies decided that anything that wasn't bolted down was fair game for them so they entered our front garden on numerous occasions to help themselves to the contents of the skip. Whether we were going to throw the stuff away or not is absolutely not the point. They are feral scumbags with no respect for other people's property.

I work in a hotel and we've recently, finally banned them from staying, despite being asked politely on numerous occasions they still feel they can do whatever they want. Despite extensive warnings that smoking in the building is a criminal offence they feel these laws don't apply to them and will continue smoking no matter how many times they've been asked to stop. They fill the waste paper bins in the rooms with crap, KFC bucket, dirty nappies etc and will then leave the bin outside of their room in the corridors until one of the members of staff takes it and empties it, at which point they simply repeat the cycle. Not pleasant for the other guests whatsoever.

They also feel like they don't have to pay, or they deserve ridiculous discounts despite the staff on the front desk having no control over the pricing of the rooms. I've been verbally abused and threatened by them several times simply because I wouldn't give them money off. It's hard enough getting payment from them in the first place, they'll often book one night and then want to extend their stay, "I'll pay it tomorrow" or "I'll send one of the boys around to pay for it later" is usually what they say, of course this is like getting blood from a stone.

Refusing them entry is easier said than done as well, I've had to call the police on multiple occasions because they won't leave, or they've threatened to send "the boys" down from the site which is only a few minutes away. This might just be an isolated case, and these gypsies might be particularly bad whereas others are not, but judging from other people's experiences on this forum I hardly think that's the case.
 
***** scum that's all they are, we see a lot of there aftermath over this way even if there's a few non troublemakers (probably the teenage wives as there stuck in the house) i will tar them all with the same brush as they deserve it, I have no time of day for them the last thing they did was rip those iron grates up from the side of the roads around a bend on a B road, If anyone dropped there wheel in it it would have ripped the full suspension setup from the car and caused a serious accident they just don't give a ****
 
Robosapien said:
Because life is far wider than what social conventions dictate it should be.

What do you think the solution is, OP? Seriously.
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I think the solution is for the police to uphold the law and do their job. Unfortunately the law only seems to be a deterrent for people that actually care. For people that don't give a ****, it is a waste of time. An example is the person who hit and run on my parked car. There were two independent witnesses that came forward and the police sent letters to the bloke which he constantly ignored. This went on for months until about nine months later the police said they let him off due to a lack of evidence despite my car being smashed in and two independent witness statements saying they saw him hit and run. The police were ******* useless.
 
It's not like they are doing anything wrong though.
Driving without insurance, thieving, ruining an area of land. Hardly what I'd call crime.

We should look up to these great people.
 
ubersonic said:
No they are not, they are protected under the same law as ethnic groups (race relations act) but are not one themselves, its a common mistake, travellers by definition are made up of people from varying races and ethnic backgrounds.
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nah you're mistaken - the travelers being refereed to in this thread as '******' etc.. are 'Irish Travelers' - they're a ethnic group

There are also english travelers of romany descent - they're also an ethnic group.

There are other people who'd fall under the general umbrella of travellers - showmen and new aged travelers... while hippies and people running circuses aren't necessarily distinct ethnic groups they're not the people being discussed here.
 
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