How to get into the IT Industry

Basher said:
When I graduated, everyone seemed to think that they were owed something, like they would walk into a senior role instantly.
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Sadly this is a very serious problem and it saddens me greatly to see young people coming out of education with such a poor grasp on the realities of employment and their value to an employer. I've interviewed many graduates over the last 15 years, perhaps longer and it has become a bigger and bigger problem each year. I've had cockiness, chippyness, arrogance, ignorance, poor language, poor presentation, terrible personal hygiene, total lack of preparation, lack of research and worse, crying (women AND men) in interviews and it is really depressing to see, it is no longer funny.

I don't lay all the blame at the individuals here, there is a lack of preparation for work that is obvious and the whole system needs a major shake up. I was having dinner with some people the other week and a couple of the people were responsible for preparing their students (one of the top universities) for work. They asked the question of me and a few others there about what was wrong and it amazed me that they knew most if not all of the problems yet seemed unable to put their finger on why. However, then they went on to explain how they prepare students for work and it all became blindingly obvious, they were using team building approaches to coach, it was utterly abysmal and beyond embarrassing for them when they got our barrels shot back at them. "It is your bloody fault you are wasting out time with these students" was the VERY simplistic summary of the discussion.

Unless they involve business people at a much broader level in the students education it will continue to be a **** up of monumental proportions and the irony is most business people would LOVE to help. Of course there are some exceptional young people coming out of education but they really are in a very small minority and this is why in an interview if you can listen, speak and question effectively, are polite and well presented and show ambition you will progress because most of the other people in the waiting room will only do some of that or more likely, none of it!
 
LordSplodge said:
Exactly why does management need to know what a stick of RAM is? I smell somebody with a chip on their shoulder. :)
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Well they don't, but they can still make crappy decisions because they don't understand the complexities of what you're dealing with.

I worked for a big firm on a NHS contract as a phone jocky, and we had a 5 minute quota for each call. Thats fine in some instances, but if you're dealing with someone a bit slow, or talking through something slightly more complex, you cannot put a hard limit on the time that takes.

Of course, it then depends how the floor manager deal with that, but in my experience it wasn't very well.

Unless they involve business people at a much broader level in the students education it will continue to be a **** up of monumental proportions and the irony is most business people would LOVE to help. Of course there are some exceptional young people coming out of education but they really are in a very small minority and this is why in an interview if you can listen, speak and question effectively, are polite and well presented and show ambition you will progress because most of the other people in the waiting room will only do some of that or more likely, none of it!
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I actually don't think thats a requirment, though it may help.

The real problem, in my opinion, is degree mills. Its in Universities interests to have students to think getting a degree is a ticket to sucess and riches, as that keep record numbers attendeding year on year. They don't seem to be telling their students what to really expect because then you may need to consider if 4 years and the associated debt is worth it for a standard IT jobs.
 
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aln said:
I actually don't think thats a requirment, though it may help.

The real problem, in my opinion, is degree mills. Its in Universities interests to have students to think getting a degree is a ticket to sucess and riches, as that keep record numbers attendeding year on year. They don't seem to be telling their students what to really expect because then you may need to consider if 4 years and the associated debt is worth it for a standard IT jobs.
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I can assure you it would help greatly as it would be involving their future employers in preparing them for what they expect and giving them first hand perspectives on the realities of employment, something sadly educators are not best placed to provide. Your point about the universities is valid, but again points to the issue I am outlining, the education establishment having different objectives to employers and focusing on the many of the wrong skills or at best, prioritising them poorly.
 
My uni actually taught Java and JSP, almost every job in the industry seems to be C# and ASP respectively. I think if unis are going to teach specific technologies they should be ones commonly used now as opposed to 10 years ago.
 
Energize said:
My uni actually taught Java and JSP, almost every job in the industry seems to be C# and ASP respectively. I think if unis are going to teach specific technologies they should be ones commonly used now as opposed to 10 years ago.
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Java. Object orientated programming language. C Sharp. Object oriented programming language. If you know the concepts then you should, assuming a basic level of Intelgence (can't do that nowadays, Universities let anybody in), then you can fairly easily switch language.

Unless it is Objective-C. That's just a horrible language.
 
Easy to switch language yes, but I think it's better to use the "right" one from the start so the graduate has more experience in it and can build a portfolio. Nothing wrong with java as a language but when it's something mainly used for enterprise now it's not really a graduate job opportunity.
 
Energize said:
Easy to switch language yes, but I think it's better to use the "right" one from the start so the graduate has more experience in it and can build a portfolio. Nothing wrong with java as a language but when it's something mainly used for enterprise now it's not really a graduate job opportunity.
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There is no "right" language. As long as university teaches algorithms and OOP then a graduate should be all set for whatever language they use in work (if they go into programming)

A language is a tool. Universities can't teach all languages and shouldn't really be focusing on what's trendy (that's Objective-C right now) but should be teaching a robust OO language and the concepts that go with it. That's far more important. I've seen graduates that can't right good algorims and wouldn't know a class if it hit them in their face.
 
I don't think I'm owed anything but it's quite disheartening after spending 4-5 years in education going from basically a NVQ level 1 to a HNC in Computing and still can't into IT.

A good apprenticeship would be ideal for me but I'm nearing 30 now and a lot of them are for degree grads/younger people :(

Employer's are just as bad as they want to employ you on a trail/temp basis, you need a degree, years of experience/ready trained and now they're adding certs into the mix to even be considered and this is low level minimum wage IT roles.
 
G J said:
I don't think I'm owed anything but it's quite disheartening after spending 4-5 years in education going from basically a NVQ level 1 to a HNC in Computing and still can't into IT.

A good apprenticeship would be ideal for me but I'm nearing 30 now and a lot of them are for degree grads/younger people :(

Employer's are just as bad as they want to employ you on a trail/temp basis, you need a degree, years of experience/ready trained and now they're adding certs into the mix to even be considered and this is low level minimum wage IT roles.
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They are only doing this because they can, simply put there are too many people trying to get into IT, so they can pick and choose and make it quite difficult to get into. Far cry from when I started 15 years ago with no qualifications, very little experience and simply a good aptitude for it.

In truth many employers would be better ignoring degrees and experience and having a simple 30 question multiple choice test that applicants do when they turn up for interview.
 
G J said:
I don't think I'm owed anything but it's quite disheartening after spending 4-5 years in education going from basically a NVQ level 1 to a HNC in Computing and still can't into IT.

A good apprenticeship would be ideal for me but I'm nearing 30 now and a lot of them are for degree grads/younger people :(

Employer's are just as bad as they want to employ you on a trail/temp basis, you need a degree, years of experience/ready trained and now they're adding certs into the mix to even be considered and this is low level minimum wage IT roles.
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I'm in no way jumping to conclusions about people, but out of curiosity, have you actually applied to these jobs that are looking for degrees etc, yet are still entry level?

I got into my entry level IT job with nothing more than a pitiful excuse for a GCE (A Level) in IT, and that was it. The department has since gone under a huge restructure, and looking at the other entry level jobs, they are looking for similar kinds of things - lots of experience or degrees. Not being funny, but I had neither and walked in to the job simply because my CV was well written, and I know how to talk to people in an interview.

That was a year ago. My advice to anyone now is "don't bother". Sure, everyone has to start somewhere, but if I ever went back to 1st / 2nd line support, I'd end up topping myself. I took a £15k pay-cut and moved to Edinburgh from Norwich in order to start an apprenticeship for an entirely different career path. I loved everything to do with IT, but in less than a year of that support has pushed me away from it.

Each to their own! :)
 
Only if you want to get into the technical side of things (networking/hardware). Obviously you'd be insane to do 1st line support if you want to be, say, a programmer or web developer because they're in completely different areas of IT.

I recently got offered a job for a telecoms company basically doing 1st line support, but I'm fine with that because I know it's not where I want to be in a couple of years time. My aim is to break out of the 1st line role and get into the more technical side of things because that's really where my passion lies.
 
trickycurve said:
Only if you want to get into the technical side of things (networking/hardware). Obviously you'd be insane to do 1st line support if you want to be, say, a programmer or web developer because they're in completely different areas of IT.

I recently got offered a job for a telecoms company basically doing 1st line support, but I'm fine with that because I know it's not where I want to be in a couple of years time. My aim is to break out of the 1st line role and get into the more technical side of things because that's really where my passion lies.
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Well, I feel more comftable in the technical support side of computing, that's where i can see myself heading.
 
Then 1st line is one of a few options. I would say the only alternative would be to get a junior position doing something akin to an IT technician (maintaining hardware and networks, sorting out user accounts, doing backups, installing software, etc).
 
Much as I wouldn't do another IT job now if you paid me, I was extemely lucky getting into it.

I left school with CSEs (yes, before GCSEs). I was doing a data entry job for a MoD establishment and spent my lunchtime down at the site bar - not necessarily drinking alcohol I hasten to add - it was just a nice place to sit, eat my packed lunch and chat with people.

It was one of these people I knew that was working on a project to distribute IT systems round the Navy/Marine sickbays. He mentioned there was a job going in the office and knew I *tinkered* at home with my PC, so he mentioned to his boss I was interested.

Got an interview, and started shortly after. Did that job for about 3 years before moving into the main building and joining the site desktop support group where I spent the next 6 or 7 years.

In my earlier post I called it 2nd line support. That's mainly because the site had a central non-technical helpdesk that routed the calls. After them was either us, comms, or DBAs. There was no 3rd line, and we only ever got a specialist in once (related to the H letter before Q) post I made earlier.
 
I think a lot of folks will jump in via a 2nd line support job. With IT knowledge you'll be above general phone staff who just answer and try their best to follow a script (not being snooty, that generally IS how it goes). Do that, find something that seems like a suitable specialty (or alternatively, as tends to happen, get a call from a mate/hear about a job, wing it in the interview and learn as you go :)

The alternative is to grab some form of industry certificate in a specialty you like the look of. You WILL have to pay for at least the exam taking this route but the rest is free. Legally or not. You then apply straight in as "Junior <whatever the role is>" which is usually a decent start pay.
 
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