Poll: Hungarian Grand Prix 2021, Budapest - Race 11/23

Rate the 2021 Hungarian Grand Prix out of ten


  • Total voters
    148
  • Poll closed .
Soldato
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1 Jun 2013
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9,315
I really don't understand why this discussion has gone on for so long. It's quite simple, there's a rule in place, they couldn't comply to said rule so are punished for it. It's as clear as a breach can go.

People are just desperate for Vettel to keep his second place because they feel sorry for him falling from the position of being several time world champion to the doldrums he's been in for years, even with a top team like Ferrari, and now winding out his career with a middling team. I really don't think it's going to happen, and people shouldn't read too much into AM throwing a hail mary and chucking in an appeal that they know isn't going to work.

Look at the RB appeal after Verstappen crashed himself out. That was a load of nonsense from beginning to end, and if it hadn't been chucked out the door straight away, RB would probably have got themselves into more trouble for the more outrageous claims they made in that appeal. It didn't stop them from giving it a go anyway. RB probably knew that it wouldn't work and were just using it to try and unsettle Hamilton and Mercedes, and that ended up working out badly for them in the next race.
 
Associate
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St Albans
Who is excited for the Belgian? Always been my fave track... Good track for overtaking so I expect a good battle twixt the Bulls and Mercs....
 
Caporegime
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I really don't understand why this discussion has gone on for so long. It's quite simple, there's a rule in place, they couldn't comply to said rule so are punished for it. It's as clear as a breach can go.

Because the argument originally revolved around AM claiming that they had the legally required amount of fuel in the tank but due to equipment (pump) failure were unable to remove it for inspection and the forums resident legalists had no problem with it leading to a disqualification even though in the spirit of the sport they would have gained no advantage and did nothing wrong. Essentially people were arguing that if your pump fails then it's tough **** because the wording of the rule says that they have to remove the required amount of fuel for it to count as not cheating.

It's like disqualifying Usain Bolt from a 100m race because some incompetent nurse was unable to take the required blood sample for analysis but people seem to think it's ok because the rules don't state anything about incompetent nurses, just that he has to have a blood sample taken and he didn't.

I have no problem with Vettel's DQ I just think legalism taken to its extreme gets a bit ridiculous at times, rules don't always take into account everything that might pop up, you sometimes have to show some common sense.
 
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Caporegime
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26 Dec 2003
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But it is tough ****. You must supply 1 litre of fuel or be disqualified. They couldn't supply the fuel. It’s clear cut.

So if you won an Olyumpic gold and were disqualified because the nurse couldn't take a blood sample you think that's acceptable simply because the rules state that "an athlete must provide a blood sample when asked". You don't think it's stupid as **** to say "well thems the rules everyone knew them didn't they"? crazy times. legalism taken to the extreme.
 
Man of Honour
Joined
20 Sep 2006
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33,993
So if you won an Olyumpic gold and were disqualified because the nurse couldn't take a blood sample you think that's acceptable simply because the rules state that "an athlete must provide a blood sample when asked". You don't think it's stupid as **** to say "well thems the rules everyone knew them didn't they"? crazy times. legalism taken to the extreme.
What has Olympics got to do with F1 rules?

F1 rules are as clear as day in this area. AM broke them. There is literally zero argument.
 
Soldato
Joined
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South Manchester
Bad analogy - if you didn't have enough blood, you wouldn't win Olympic gold. ;)

AM didn't have 1.4l in the tank as they thought - a faulty part meant it leaked out. Rules are the rules and the same for everyone, however unfair it may seem in this case.
 
Caporegime
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What has Olympics got to do with F1 rules?

F1 rules are as clear as day in this area. AM broke them. There is literally zero argument.

Try reading what I wrote and thinking about it a little?

I don't care that Vettel has now been disqualified because it's clear they didn't have the reuqired amount of fuel in the tank but a few pages back people were arguing that even if the legal amount of fuel was in the tank then he should be DQ simply because their pump didn't work and "those are the rules". That's not in good spirit and it's using a badly/lazilywritten rule that can't take into account every eventuality to disqualify someone who did nothing wrong.
 
Soldato
Joined
29 Jun 2004
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2,652
Try reading what I wrote and thinking about it a little?

I don't care that Vettel has now been disqualified because it's clear they didn't have the reuqired amount of fuel in the tank but a few pages back people were arguing that even if the legal amount of fuel was in the tank then he should be DQ simply because their pump didn't work and "those are the rules". That's not in good spirit and it's using a badly/lazilywritten rule that can't take into account every eventuality to disqualify someone who did nothing wrong.

How is it a badly or lazily written rule? It's pretty clear and concise, in that you must be able to provide a litre of fuel if asked. AM failed to provide the requested volume of fuel and therefore were DQ'd. You seem to misunderstand the requirement for the test, it isn't to ensure that there was a given volume of fuel in the car, but to ensure that a large enough sample could be taken to run fuel tests and keep back enough for two further samples incase they need to be reanalysed.

There are plenty of rules in motorsport where there is no tolerance on failure. Just look at the ride height check in BTCC, they push a roller under the front of the car, if it doesn't fit you are DQ'd and it doesn't matter if the failure is by a fraction of a mm or several mm.
 
Associate
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I agree with the rule... I'd have agreed AM could replace a faulty pump to allow them to pump it out but I think its clear now that the fuel just isnt there
 
Soldato
Joined
29 Jun 2004
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2,652
I agree with the rule... I'd have agreed AM could replace a faulty pump to allow them to pump it out but I think its clear now that the fuel just isnt there

The rules do allow them to attach an external pump in the event of the lift pump failing. However it is impossible to replace the in tank pump as you cannot remove any bodywork beyond the cover for the outlet pipes from the tank.
 
Soldato
Joined
1 Jun 2013
Posts
9,315
Try reading what I wrote and thinking about it a little?

I don't care that Vettel has now been disqualified because it's clear they didn't have the reuqired amount of fuel in the tank but a few pages back people were arguing that even if the legal amount of fuel was in the tank then he should be DQ simply because their pump didn't work and "those are the rules". That's not in good spirit and it's using a badly/lazilywritten rule that can't take into account every eventuality to disqualify someone who did nothing wrong.

It's been said plenty of times by the people in F1. There's no such thing as the "spirit of the rules". There's the rules, and that's it. The rule itself allows no interpretation or consideration of "the spirit". It's baked in.

If (to use your own analogy) there's a rule that says Usain Bolt must supply his running shoes for inspection after a race, and if he doesn't the punishment is disqualification, then there's no "spirit of the rules" where he can argue a week later that he should still be allowed to keep the win because his shoes were perfectly legal, honest, just trust him that if said shoes had been supplied for inspection, they would have been fine. The judges are just supposed to take it on trust and ignore the shoe inspection rules for a single competitor that broke that rule.

You don't seem to understand the rule isn't about what fuel is or isn't in the car, it's only about if a litre can be supplied to the steward when they ask for it. There's no interpretation or "spirit of the rules" allowed. It's a simple request that if a team can't comply with, the rules have a mandatory disqualification as punishment, and nothing else.

How do you know Vettel's car wasn't under-fuelled and he gained advantage from that? How do you know the fuel in his car was the correct spec? You can't know that because a sample could not be supplied, and the rules do not allow a team to "self-certify" that they are following the rules when they can't provide proof when requested. In fact, the way Vettel was told to stop on track and the fact the team couldn't supply the required sample is circumstantial evidence that they were underfuelled.

You may not agree with the rule, and maybe the teams should change it, but it's what AM agreed to race under, and they can't simply refuse to abide by it because they don't like the results of being held to those rules.
 
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Man of Honour
Joined
20 Sep 2006
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33,993
I tried to take £100 out of my account tonight but I only have £93 in there and I got told no. I’m furious, I’m going to complain to the bank tomorrow because that’s just a stupid rule and they should have automatically given me an overdraft.
 
Caporegime
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19 May 2004
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Location
Nordfriesland, Germany
So if you won an Olyumpic gold and were disqualified because the nurse couldn't take a blood sample you think that's acceptable simply because the rules state that "an athlete must provide a blood sample when asked". You don't think it's stupid as **** to say "well thems the rules everyone knew them didn't they"? crazy times. legalism taken to the extreme.

The rules for drug testing do disqualify athletes for not providing samples in accordance with the rules on providing samples.
 
Associate
Joined
23 May 2009
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Hants/Berks Border
Is this still rumbling on?!?

Just drop it already - they could not provide the necessary fuel when required
It’s a very simple rule, which they have been found guilty of because of the quantity they could provide. It’s literally in black and white and no ifs or buts enter into the conversation.

/rant
 
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